525 Hugh Massie

Money Is In Your DNA

[00:00:00]

Jeffrey Feldberg: There's a quiet question that most founders never ask themselves. What if the reason you struggle with money leadership or growth isn't strategy, skill, or effort, but your DNA.

Hugh Massie has spent decades exploring a provocative idea that our financial behaviors, decision making patterns, and even our relationship with risk are wired more deeply than we realize.

As the founder and executive chairman of DNA Behavior International, he's pioneered the science of financial DNA, helping entrepreneurs, advisors and leadership teams understand how their natural behavioral design influences wealth creation.

But Hugh's story is not one of instant insight. It's a journey through personal reckoning, deep self-discovery, and the humbling realization that success without alignment can feel hollow. From accounting and financial services, to building a global behavioral analytics firm he has consistently asked [00:01:00] the uncomfortable questions most founders avoid.

His work sits at the intersection of neuroscience, finance, psychology and leadership. And what makes it powerful is this, it forces high achievers to confront themselves, not just their numbers, not just their strategy, but who they really are when money is on the line. This conversation goes far beyond finance.

It's about identity patterns, blind spots, and the courage to rewire how you think about wealth and leadership. 

Sponsor Deep Wealth Mastery

Jeffrey Feldberg: And before we start the episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Deep Wealth and the Deep Wealth Mastery Program. Here's Sanjay, a graduate of Deep Wealth Mastery, and he says, the investment I made in the Deep Wealth Mastery Program, it's a rounding error compared to the value created today and the future value I'll receive.

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Man, I love that kind of feedback because it's that kind of feedback that's what gets me out of bed every day.

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Meet Hugh Massie

Jeffrey Feldberg: Deep Wealth Nation welcome to another episode of the Deep Podcast Deep Nation. You know one of my favorite sayings here at Deep Wealth. Show me your team, and I will tell you your future. So Deep Nation, when it comes to your current team, but also your future team, do you really know who they are? Do you know how to get the best out of them in a way that creates a [00:04:00] win, win, win?

And how do you prevent some of those painful missteps and losses when it comes to the team? All kinds of questions. You may not have the answers, but I got great news. We have a very special guest in the House of Deep Wealth. We have a fellow entrepreneur. Thought leader and incredible all round individual.

Hugh, welcome to the Deep Podcast. There is always a story behind the story. You have this incredible story, so what's your story? What got you from where you were to where you are today?

Hugh Massie: Yeah. Well, Jeffrey, firstly, thank you for having me on the podcast for this conversation. I'm excited to do it with you. 

Decisions Behind Numbers

Hugh Massie: as I'm sort of reflecting on your question there, you know, what I've come to learn is that the, you know, when we look at numbers, you can see them on a page and, sort of look at them in an accounting type way.

And I was once upon a time, an accountant today, I called myself a reformed accountant. and, how do the numbers get there? They get there because of people, because of the decisions that people make. the accounts of a company or the profits and [00:05:00] balance sheet of a company are a reflection of the decisions made by its leaders.

The personal Wealth that you have or don't have is a reflection of your own personal decisions. that doesn't just get there. So understanding the people behind the decisions is really important. and, you know, those decisions come from their behavior, and that's really what I'm all about.

I've always wanted to, ever since I was a kid, I was fascinated by money and I think some looked at that as Hugh was just interested in Wealth. For the sake of having more money, but really what I was interested in is why people make the decisions that they do.

and I think that's an important piece to me you know, there's more pieces to the story of how I've got to where I am, but that'd be a foundational piece.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely love that. 

Money Reveals Character

Jeffrey Feldberg: You know, Hugh, as we're talking about this, it reminds me of that saying, when it comes to money, especially if you really wanna [00:06:00] see what a person is actually like, either take away all their money or give them a lot of money, and then. And you'll see the true nature of that. What do you think about that?

Hugh Massie: Yeah, I think that there's absolutely a lot of truth in that. I think if you are someone that's got a lot of money, whether it came to you easily because of your career, you. Got paid a lot of money in your career. Doesn't mean you didn't work hard for it, but, or you inherited the money.

It's, it, it, it's easy to use money as a bandaid for problems not to find your purpose and to, you know, muddle along with established ways or, or traditional ways of thinking, or this is what I'm supposed to do because I have money. When you, but when you have no money in a way, you're now naked and you've got to rely on your talents and gifts to go and make it and to do something.

And I think that's then what? Becomes the real test. And do you then do [00:07:00] that with character and integrity? Obviously, we're not talking about going and stealing it or you know, just outright crushing people or whatnot. You know, how do you go and, and be an authentic human? Utilize your talents and maximize your potential, whatever that is.

Having no money, you, you're more likely to find your purpose because you have to, and you have to. In that case, then be resilient. I think that having a lot of money can in a way hide you from the truth or hide you from who you are.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And as you talk about that, Hugh, what's interesting, what was fascinating even before we spoke, your whole approach to this topic. 'cause for most people, okay, money and we have our own narrative. Maybe it's right, maybe it's not right. yourself though, you went a lot deeper. You were actually bringing some science into this, and I was wondering, when did you first realize that for yourself, your data point of one, that your relationship with money, it wasn't just learned behavior. That there was something much deeper that was going on.

Hardwired Under Pressure

Hugh Massie: Yeah, so I started to [00:08:00] have the, realizations when I had a Wealth management business. that, I think is when it's, and I was going also through some of my own, you know, personal growth journey. start, I was a CPA originally, so that's why I called myself the reformed accountant.

And, you know, a lot of my, as I've reflected on it, Jeffrey, my success in that really wasn't because I knew more about tax law than the next person. It was because I knew how to customize the experience of how it was delivered and to understand client problems. I knew that that was also going to be the secret to being successful with a Wealth management business that, you know, your traditional banker or Wealth manager, in a way is treating you as a transaction a lot of the time.

One size fits all my goal was always to understand the person and how they make decisions and what I started to see more and more. Was that when people are under pressure, they would behave differently to how they would say they [00:09:00] are. So it's easy, you know, someone would say, yeah, I, I'll do A, B, C, D.

When they're in a social setting or in a, non-pressure situation, what do they do in a pressure situation? And I would see a lot of clients flip. , Whether it was discussing tax people saying, yep, I wanna avoid tax, or I want to take this strategy. But when you really. Get down to it.

They can't handle the risk of that or people's attitude to taking risk in the investment markets. Equity markets with real estate, their conversational position with that is different to how they are when there's actually a problem with it. and what we're seeing is what I call natural hardwired behavior emerge.

Versus learn behaviors and what I always wanted to deal with once I started to see this, is if I'm gonna be successful in building portfolios for people, helping them with complex high stakes decisions, I need to know who they are under pressure.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so talk to us about [00:10:00] that, because if I am looking from the outside in, Hugh, I'm hearing you talk about this, one of the first things I'm saying, wait a minute. So you're telling me that my relationship with money is not a learned behavior. There's something much deeper I may not even understand.

It's somehow hardwired into me.

Hugh Massie: Well, I think that let's build on that. I think that your relationship. for a lot of people, their relationship with money is socially driven. It's environmentally driven. It, it's how they think they should be with money or they have a, a, a greedy attitude or an entitled attitude to money because they see other people have got A, B, c, D, , toys, cars, beach houses, eating in restaurants.

So therefore. That's how they should act or that's , what they desire even though they're not in that, place. And that is an unhealthy relationship with money. I think a lot of entrepreneurs get themselves into that place 'cause they're comparing themselves to other people.

Whereas a [00:11:00] healthier relationship to money comes when you can understand the core of who you are and what your own identity is, which comes from your purpose, knowing your talents. An authentic set of values if you get that part right so then your life mission is right, and you've got, goals that are aligned to who you are, then your relationship with money is likely to be healthier and from that perspective, then it becomes something you can talk about in a comfortable way with other people. as well. So it is a healthy relationship with money Jeffrey, I do think comes from the internal

Jeffrey Feldberg: Mm-hmm.

Hugh Massie: and it's having a deep awareness of yourself and I, I start with people to help them with that.

I start with helping them understand what their natural core talents are , how they are, what we would call hardwired. Because that's the raw truth of the person. And then how are they gonna operationalize that in life? and then there might be some learned behaviors or [00:12:00] skills that come to the table with that.

Value sets beliefs and framing that up to what is your identity? How do you want the world to see you? And how are you gonna act up to that?

Jeffrey Feldberg: Right. 

Leaders Shape Company Money

Jeffrey Feldberg: so as we begin to talk about this, I'm a founder in Deep Health Nation and I'm hearing our conversation. You and I are having a fireside chat, and I'm thinking to myself, okay, this all sounds fine and great. Why would I really care though what a person does with his or her money on my team?

That's their business. That's not my business. And how in the world could that possibly play a role in our business? We have shared goals. We have a shared vision. I know so and so what a terrific individual and we're marching towards this goal. How in the world could their relationship with money possibly get in the way of me, my business, my vision?

Hugh Massie: I personally believe, and I'll make this statement that. A company, a business, will eat the behavior of its leaders.

a client of a Wealth manager will most [00:13:00] likely eat the behavior of the Wealth manager. And unless that process is very objectively handled and that the client is understood and treated on their terms, not the advisor or Wealth manager's terms, it's a natural thing to happen. It, and I'm not being critical, but it is a natural thing to happen.

And so in a business. Business is a, again, is a product of the decisions made by its leaders, starting with the CEO, who's charged with creating financial value and how he or she acts in the company in terms of making decisions is in part or not, is more than in part reflects their behavior and going with that, their financial behavior.

so if a leader is inherently a very cautious person, they will tend to make cautious decisions inside the business. Or if they do take a risk, they're probably likely to be very uncomfortable. And when something doesn't work out, they will unwind it. Or if the [00:14:00] leader is very tight on fiscal controls.

You'll see, , extremely disciplined decision making, very rational most likely decision making numbers, focused decision making, but maybe ignoring the needs of people, the needs of clients. it might become more focused on what the business needs than , helping the clients and serving them properly.

With what they need. And in the end, there's a crash there because all of that's gotta be aligned and so, or in this current day and age, innovation is really important. Being able to take risk on innovation and what's the right innovation and then taking risk on it.

 what are you gonna spend on that to grow and develop your business in a fast changing world?

Well, that's pretty scary for a lot of leaders, but it does reflect how they think about money. And is the money in the business for them or is it for the company and the client and the [00:15:00] business and it's sustainability. And I think that's where you can't separate the financial behavior. Of the leadership from the company.

The budgets are set based on that, right?

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so with all of that said, because you have been behind the scenes, you've been figuring this out, you've systematized it, you've blended

Hugh Massie: Yeah.

Jeffrey Feldberg: with the science. 

Onboarding The DNA Process

Jeffrey Feldberg: So imagine now for just a moment, Hugh, I approach you. Yeah, I heard you on the deep podcast. Really fascinating things that you're doing.

Here's my company, here's me my vision, where I'd like to take the company. Here's my team. Hugh, what does that look like? Can you walk us through, and I know every company's different, every leader is different. speaking though, can you walk us through your process of how do you onboard us and then how do we, with your system, with your science, begin to leverage that to move us closer to our goals?

Hugh Massie: Yeah, so I think the, , Jeffrey, there's a number of pieces to that. So I think that the first thing would be is for a company is looking at what their goals are [00:16:00] and. is the mindset of the leadership say to achieve 10 x their goals, where they're at today or more go on a two x type linear progression.

I think that's something that's important upfront to sort out generally understand their views about innovation and what they're prepared To do, to go on the next growth journey. So that's more the qualitative discussion that might take place upfront.

And then, what we do at DNA behavior is we are going to psychometrically assess the leaders, starting with the CEO and the leadership team so that we can understand what their strengths, their struggles, , where their talents sit. With that. So what the, , you know, seeing how they're going, you know,, from a behavioral basis, how they are going to drive growth in their business.

And then we are looking for specifically what we would call their financial goal drive, because we know that that's the strongest behavior that's going to create profits. So where's the [00:17:00] competitive drive to sell more? But we're also then looking for how they're gonna innovate and what the fiscal controls are.

Because at the end of the day, as I said at the start, the responsibility of the CEO and the senior leadership team is to create financial value. That's where it comes from. So we need to know those things. But the other part that's on the other side of the drive for results is the culture. And the results drive doesn't last very long if the culture is poor.

and the reality is, is most of the leaders that I'm talking about that are strong on the results, drive talents, which is important,

Jeffrey Feldberg: Mm-hmm.

Hugh Massie: need to learn how to build a relational culture and invest in it. that's their learning point. And so that's where we are going to do probably be doing the most learning and development.

Like I said to somebody else this afternoon in a conversation, , what's the number one challenge for the results based leaders? How to be more approachable and with that, build more trust. [00:18:00] And you know, , I know I'm one of those results driven leaders and on my day someone might be scared to approach me because they can see even if my door's open and I'm saying I'm got an open door policy.

Because I'm so focused on what I'm doing and the drive for results, and I'm impatient, that can be scary for some. So my development is, I've gotta keep learning how to soften it up at the right times, make it fun, make people feel included. you know, , They're gonna be fairly treated. All of those types of things that are important in the culture and that they feel important as part of the team.

It's not. I care about their wellbeing. It doesn't mean it has to be, , a teddy bear's picnic or kindergarten at work. It can still be, a, a driving environment. But the people have gotta feel that there's clarity there. There's their wellbeing's being looked after if they see a problem that they can raise it.

So, psychological safety is important, , but they're all things that can be learned. By the leaders if they're prepared to do [00:19:00] it. to, at the end of the day build the business. Ideally, there's someone on the senior leadership team that's empowered to do this, you know,, to be what I call the people, culture person to help that side of the business.

And, we now see in our metrics. Leadership teams, particularly with the entrepreneurial businesses, that it's important that there is a visionary person, there is a relationship person and there's an execution person, , for not executing people but making sure execution happens.

But there's gotta be a fundamental drive underneath that. Everybody's gotta be driven to the goal, and that's a measurable thing. So that's what we're coming in. To look for and, , I don't mind really what the construct of the team is. It's then how you're gonna work with what you've got to build for the future and who you might, you add or reposition.

and how might there be some change to communication?

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so let me ask, what at the surface would seem like a simple question, not to confuse simple with simplicity. There's a lot of layers to it, [00:20:00] as I'm

Hugh Massie: Yeah.

Culture And Safety Patterns

Jeffrey Feldberg: ask you, you in the Deep 9-step Roadmap, I'm turning to step two X-Factors, and the X-Factors are very specific to each business.

Something that is unique to them. They are world class in it, and every business has three to five X-Factors. As founders, we tend to overlook these or just take it for granted. One of the foundational X-Factors for us here at Deep Wealth, it's the culture, the company culture. It could be a toxic culture or the flip side, it could be a rich culture and they both have positives and they're not so positives, if you will. That said, and it's a bit of a tougher question, generally speaking from a very high level, can we apply one of my favorite laws, AL'S law, the 80 20 principle? Yeah. Jeffrey, you know,, when I look at business cultures. of the challenges otherwise known as opportunities that my company helps solve. But 80% of the challenges in most business cultures are coming from the same 20% of these issues or patterns over here.

What would you say to that? Are you seeing some patterns there?

Hugh Massie: [00:21:00] Yeah. And, I alluded it to it before with uh, approachability,

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yep.

Hugh Massie: but I will go one step further. It's psychological safety.

everybody can say, I've got a great culture. Right? I think in the proof in the pud, you know,, they're just culture's, just words. At the end of the day, it's about how does each business.

Do, , deliver their product or service in a unique way. Right? And how are the people included in that? I think that's, something that's important. But psychological safety is a really important part of it in the culture that there can be open sharing and dialogue with about a subject about issues.

The ability for someone maybe lower down in the team to confront. The leadership about a problem. Well, obviously done the right way. Not just complaining, but so constructively bringing forward, this is a friction that's stopping us from achieving our goals, and we need to figure out a [00:22:00] solution, to solving that problem.

Whatever it is. I'm not just talking whistleblower stuff, I'm talking fundamental operational type things. You need to be able to have those conversations without the leadership blowing their stack or just saying, okay, that person's a nuisance. let's get them outta here. Or we're just not having that conversation.

, When it's been raised constructively for the first time and maybe the second time, I think that's a part that. is problematic. And I think also the, the, the trans, the personal transparency of the leaders. It's easy to say everybody else in the team should be doing A, B, C, D, but they don't do it themselves.

and they're not vulnerable themselves about who they are and what they're doing and what their practices are, what their strengths are and, and, and, and what their struggles. I think that everything starts with the leaders. Leaders go first and they've gotta breed the culture.

It doesn't just start in the coffee room or in the canteen. it starts right at the top and I think that's the blind spot, based on trust at the end of the day.

Jeffrey Feldberg: So [00:23:00] as a founder, as a leader, it starts with me, no surprise. It starts with me. It ends with me. I. Want to be the change that I wanna see in other people. can't be, uh uh, bill or Mary, you should be doing this or that, and I'm doing the exact opposite. I need to lead

Hugh Massie: Yeah,

Jeffrey Feldberg: and what I want my company to be, needs to be exemplified and I need to show that in my actions.

How am I doing with that?

Hugh Massie: absolutely. That is exactly it.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so

Hugh Massie: Not easy to do. Not easy to do.

Founders Roles And Hiring

Jeffrey Feldberg: a lot of founders, and I'm thinking of some founders, interestingly, I met with a very successful founder yesterday and we had some great chemistry. We were having some nice professional talks and he pulled me aside. He said, Jeffrey, I just don't like people and here's an incredibly successful guy, and I'm thinking, okay. As a founder. Wow, that's gotta be challenging. You don't like people, but business is all about people. So for the founder who is into his or her work and would rather be focused on that and would rather outsource the people, quote-unquote stuff, using air quotes to other [00:24:00] people in the organization to figure that out and do that, what should I be rethinking as a founder or, yeah, I just love my work.

I wanna be doing that. I don't want to deal with the people stuff. That's why I have HR or other people on the team to deal with that. How do I deal with that?

Hugh Massie: There's a great book that I recommend people read Jeffrey out there called Founders Keepers by Rich Hagberg. I, I did a podcast with him. Just before Christmas, and I was sitting in your seat like you are with me and he's done a lot of measurement on this, psychological based measurement and in a way we have, but I think he's packaged it because he just focuses on this one area.

He's packaged it together really well. And I think that, that the thing for a founder to remember is that. There's three elements that are needed to make your business successful. Being the visionary, there's a people person and there's execution And as a founder, you won't be all three, but all three are needed.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Mm-hmm.

Hugh Massie: Now you might be one and a half, like you could be the visionary [00:25:00] leader that's reasonably good with, you know, , what I call upfront, connecting with people what I call an influencer. But you won't be any good at building deep relationships. So things fall apart and you're probably gonna be hard work with your team at a certain point.

They'll find you charming in a way, but they'll also find you difficult. and there won't be any execution. And if you're the execution person, you might be quite good at visionary, but you won't be any good at people, ? And in my case, I'm the visionary and , I can execute and design processes.

But there's a point where I get bored with it and I don't wanna keep doing it. Right? and then the people part misses out. So you've gotta fill those three roles at the senior level of your business, but with people who are driven to the goal. And so that's where, , if you are that visionary person, you need to hire the relationship person to deal with the people issues.

in the team. So I've done that. I have a person, Leon Morales in our team that handles essentially all of the [00:26:00] people issues. You know,, If we have a major decision to make around a person, we'll talk about it. he's the day-to-day general scrum master, if you wanna call it that with the people internally and with the clients.

and, and then we've got someone else who does execution.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so I love what I'm hearing you say, Hugh, because what you're saying is, Hey Jeffrey, you've gotta be someone who you're never gonna be because that's just the way that it is. Take stock of who you are, but more importantly, who you're not. Understand that every company you need to have these needs or wants fulfilled in these areas, and make sure that you have the right people. On the right bus, in the right seat in your company that are helping you to achieve this and to do this. And so with that in mind, is this a situation where I can come to you and say, okay, Hugh, do your DNA stock of who I am as a leader when it comes to business, my relationship to money, my relationship

Hugh Massie: Yep.

Jeffrey Feldberg: about people and dealing with all my stakeholders, find my gaps, and then let's identify what those gaps are so I can make sure that either I have those people already on the team that I can elevate to the [00:27:00] right position, or if I don't. With your help and identifying what I don't have or where I don't wanna be, I can now go out and find the right people to fill in those gaps. How am I doing with that?

Hugh Massie: That's absolutely perfect and I'll just add one piece. I still think though, that, , just to harp on the awareness piece for that leader. Is still to be consciously aware of the impact that you might be having on others so that your own behavior with people continues to improve. And, you know,, you're curious about employees and clients, even if you're not the warm teddy bear, , all day long.

At least you're doing better on the emotional intelligence front. All the time. but otherwise, generally speaking, everything you said is right. and you can't be all things , to the business and you need to hire others and delegate to that.

Better Hiring With Behavioral Data

Jeffrey Feldberg: And what's interesting about that, as I'm going back over my own experiences and you, I'll put myself under the microscope and be the first to share out there that of my biggest failures was on the hiring side, [00:28:00] not hiring as the case may be

Hugh Massie: Yeah.

Jeffrey Feldberg: feel that I needed to, or yes, I want to have this position, I want to fill this position. And really had no idea. And, and in a lot of cases, I even had the professional help along the way, the recruiters or the so-called HR professionals, and I still miss the mark. So what are you doing with your systems that, and I'm not casting aspersions here, I'm not pointing any fingers. And listen, the professional recruiters, they're doing some great things out there. How are you different though? What are you looking at or doing that perhaps most aren't doing or missing entirely?

Hugh Massie: the first thing in that sense is we do get a deeper measurement of the behavior of a person. you know,, the first starting point is on the natural hardwired behavior. So we're getting a very deep, robust measurement of that. , Somebody asked me this question the other day, , around, well, how do you compare to the big five assessment or the disc profiles?

we are going deeper [00:29:00] than those, as are with a broader range of factors with a high reliability. Accuracy measurement. So I think that's the first thing, but it's also how the assessments that we have get used, we are very big on the assessment's, not just done, and one person reads it.

That's the person who deploys it and the person that had to complete it never sees the results. 

Profiles Build Trust

Hugh Massie: We are very big on the sharing of the profile results and then it being used continuously in the business.

And so we set up the platform for that. and again, you know,, no one with our firm would come to a hiring interview without seeing what leader's profile is or what the person is gonna manage their profile on the team's style is, you know,, that's a different approach to it, but we think that kind of transparency does build more trust and makes the whole process more.

Attractive and builds more engagement.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so as you're talking about this, what's going through my mind? 

Health Panel Analogy

Jeffrey Feldberg: Because here at Deep [00:30:00] Wealth, myself and the team behind the scenes, we're in the process of building out our latest mastery program, Deep Wealth, Mastery Health, it's all about the health side because you cannot, my own belief here, my own bias as a founder, I cannot possibly have the best company if I'm not in the best physical shape, mental, and otherwise.

Hugh Massie: Yep.

Jeffrey Feldberg: it's, it's almost like you see those people out there, they're taking every vitamin outta the sun, but they've never bothered. To get a blood panel. they don't need those vitamins or maybe they're not taking a vitamin that they absolutely should and they have nine, nine others that they really shouldn't be. And so it sounds like with what you're doing with your systems and behind the scenes and getting to know each of the leaders on the team with the science, with the art, with the systems, with your experience, okay, Jeffrey and team, here's what we've discovered about you. you're walking us through that.

Hugh Massie: Yeah.

Jeffrey Feldberg: we have that clarity. We know where we are, we know where we're not. We can now go to market and very specifically fill those gaps that either perhaps we had [00:31:00] an inkling that we had or didn't even know that we have 'cause ignorance is not bliss and begin that process. How are we doing

Hugh Massie: So, yeah, so we're doing really, really well and I wanna feed off your analogy because Jeffrey, something that you said I'm very passionate about. Since 2018, I've been on my own health journey just to exactly for the reasons you said, , so if I, I can't be healthy and enjoy actually getting and being healthy, then I'm not going to perform very well.

I'm not gonna perform very well for a long time. Not gonna have mental clarity, All of those things will be good to my family. getting clarity on that, it's, , you can go to the physician's office and you can get the standard 40 point blood test that they give you, right?

twice a year if you go in and that's what healthcare gives you. Or you can go to a functional medicine doctor and get the 200 point blood test. It's now showing interrelationship of a whole lot more of your blood work. And then you start discussing, well, gee, why am I on a statin?

and it's then having, yes, [00:32:00] it might be solving one problem, but it's causing five others over here. Or whatever it is. And you're right. it could be just as simple as stop eating bananas and eating chocolate and nuts and drink more water and all your numbers improve.

And I think that if I put it at DNA, most of the processes out there are your standard physician's blood panel. And what we're giving you is what the functional medicine doctor would do. That from a precision measurement perspective, it's giving you a chance to optimize not only your career and what you do at, in the workplace, but your overall life and how you deal with money.

And why wouldn't you wanna know all of that and potentially confront what might be the major issue that's holding you back? And it could be really simple to solve.

Founders Money Mindset

Jeffrey Feldberg: So from that perspective, and I understand that every individual is unique and different, especially when it comes to money. I've had health professionals, medical professionals, thought leaders come on this podcast and talk about [00:33:00] people's relationship with money. When it comes to founders, entrepreneurs, business owners, to me, we're cut from a different mold, a different cloth, if you will. Again, are there some general patterns when it comes to our relationship with money, our DNA with money that as a founder I am surprised to hear about, or, Hey Jeffrey, here's what's really going on by the scenes. Have you ever wondered why you feel this when that happens? Yeah, you all the time, well, here's why that's happening.

Here's how you're hardwired for that. Anything that you can share with us.

Hugh Massie: I think that what I see, Jeffrey, is that the founders that do better in the long run

Jeffrey Feldberg: Mm-hmm.

Hugh Massie: and go further have a healthier relationship with money because they are, they are in their business, or if they've got multiple of them because they're fighting for a cause.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Mm-hmm.

Hugh Massie: They're doing something that is deeply personal to them.

They can see there's a big problem that's being solved, and that's what they get out of bed. They love to go and do that, and they're prepared to fight through any [00:34:00] problem to get there and then to keep building on that solution. So that, that to me leads to. As they go along and become more conscious, will lead to a healthier relationship with money.

cause they're actually fundamentally more purpose driven and likely to be more human impact driven, , and they're thinking about the world in more of an abundant way. Right? Even though, yes, we're in business to create financial value and profit, but there's some abundant thinking in there.

There's prosperity thinking as opposed to the people that are more likely to fail. , They shut their businesses down quicker. They chop and change on staff. They're transactional. There's just, it's more deal flipping. a lot of the time they're comparing themselves to somebody else.

I've gotta have that because the person in my neighborhood's got that, or they upgrade to another neighborhood. Because they want to be seen in the right place, but actually it's causing a lot of pressure for them and mental pressure and then you put the spousal pressures on top and it gets [00:35:00] difficult.

And then they start making decisions in the business to sustain that or create that outside life environment. And it doesn't work. that creates a lot of stress. That creates bad decisions and usually not an optimization of the business result. and often they're in the business only because it's making a lot of money, not because they're fighting for a, a greater cause.

And that's a problem.

Jeffrey Feldberg: A huge problem. 

Ego Greed and FOMO

Jeffrey Feldberg: Some of my biggest failures with Jeffrey and his big ego. It was all about the money, not about solving problems, helping people. My e-learning company E Bennet, on paper, it was like the Bumblebee. It should have failed. No money, no experience, no team. You and I were speaking about this offline massive success. Post exit had this huge ego, oh sure, everything I touch, I've got the platinum touch, it'll succeed. Where can I make the most money? Spectacular failures, even with the same team, because I could write the check Now, I didn't care. I didn't have the passion. And so lemme ask you this, someone in Deep, both Nation, they're hearing us talk now and they're saying, Hugh, if [00:36:00] I'm really honest about this. social media, I'm seeing these pictures, I'm seeing other people's reels. this fear of missing out, or I feel this jealousy. I see their lifestyle. I'm looking at me and whoa is Jeffrey. going on behind the scenes with that? That's having me feel that way. And more importantly, how do we get out of that negative self-defeating pattern?

Hugh Massie: I think it's coming back to, I think it's probably what you're talking about. Some of it is why you see some, people who've done really well in their, in, maybe in their first business or it's their third business. 'cause we all have a lot of screw ups before we actually succeed. Maybe 15 iter of something.

But, people win big somewhere and then. They go and, you know,, write checks to things and lose half the Wealth in two or three or four years. And I think it's because they've lost the purpose. And I think that at the end of the day, keeping centered on your purpose is the really important thing.

Now, it might evolve, but keeping centered on that,

Jeffrey Feldberg: Mm-hmm.

Hugh Massie: Is important. Keeping centered on your ego, , [00:37:00] just making investments in deals because it makes you look good. It may not be the right thing. You might be getting sucked in. I've watching some groups of people with that at the moment.

, They're part of some pretty wealthy investing clubs and they're investing in stuff because they wanna be part of the scene, but. I'm pretty certain they're in things that they're paying 10 times too much for, and somebody else is doing okay out of it or won't get burned. , That, all that sort of stuff.

But it's off purpose for them, right? why invest in biotech if nothing about it? Right. I think you get my point with that.

Jeffrey Feldberg: I do. And again, it's that greed. It's that ego.

Hugh Massie: great. Yep.

Jeffrey Feldberg: I wanna be with the high flyers. I wanna be able to brag to my friends, oh, look at this. I put in my money. I doubled it, I tripled it. Or I was so and so. my goodness, it is one of the worst of things when it's all about ego and greed.

It's a bad combination that that we tend to have that that's out there. 

Identity Over Shiny Objects

Jeffrey Feldberg: Again, what's the antidote for that? You, as you're out there, you're working with [00:38:00] people, sometimes you don't even realize we're going down that trap and we're making these decisions. Okay, I wanna grow my business. Well, Jeffrey, why do you wanna grow your business? I haven't really thought about that. Now that you ask me. Yeah. I want to be. Better social circles or I wanna be in that investment club that you're talking about here, you're doing this or or that. How much of a role does that play in terms of what you're seeing out there with some of your clients and

community in general? I , 

Hugh Massie: that we could call it shiny object syndrome is is a big driver for a lot of people that's taking them. down the wrong path. And the only thing that I, can talk about to people is to come back to what's your identity and how do you really want to be remembered and make decisions around that.

Now, in some cases, that might lead to making some of these investments, but you're doing it. And, and some of them might fail, but it's being done from the right purpose and place. , that's important. 

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so do both Nation as you're hearing us talk and you're looking at yourself, your company, your motivations. Hugh's bringing up a great point because who I'm hearing you say, Hey, Jeffrey. [00:39:00] down, what's that motivation? Where's it really coming from? Don't give me the surface story that you're telling everyone else.

Go deep down, be honest. What's behind that? What's the real reason of why you want to go in that direction? And I have a feeling, Hugh, that for most of us as founders, if we just stop for a moment, to that inner peace, that inner silence, and listen and really go within. The answer might just surprise us, not necessarily even negatively, perhaps positively, but we may be surprised either side of that, and at least knowledge is power if we know what to do with it and the questions that we're asking.

Hugh Massie: Yeah. And I think, that's right. I've been talking about this more and more lately. I think that for, , entrepreneurs, founders to. really flourish, to be happy, to understand what's driving you. I think you've gotta also look at some of your early life and embrace that and, and what the challenges might have been and what the opportunities were in that.

And I think there's, part of your story is coming, from that. and that to be [00:40:00] reconciled to that is important and to reconcile to the failures. that may have happened, and well is an important part.

Right Roles and Happiness

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so Hugh, my understanding when I'm working with your company, you're taking an inventory, if I can use that word, of not just myself, also my team members, really finding out what our strengths are. And it goes back to that old saying. can have the right person on the right bus that said they're in the wrong seat and no one is happy in that regard, they're probably not happy.

The company isn't going to where it's going. So with the analysis that you're doing, the behavioral data that you're collecting, the relationship to money and other kinds of factors that are going on out there, okay, Jeffrey, here's you, here's your team. Here's our breakdown of that. It now gives me the opportunity as a leader, as the founder, to be able to evaluate or even reevaluate. My people, my team, where they're at, perhaps where they're not at, they should be in terms of business wise, responsibilities, and where [00:41:00] they shouldn't be. it's going beyond just. He said, she said, oh, you see that the other day. So and so just flew off the handle. Or, wow, what a great win. So and so got, we're going beyond that and there's actually science behind this.

There's patterns, there's algorithms behind that to help accelerate the success and growth of my company, my team, my people, and I'll take it one step further and you can say, Jeffrey OnBase or off base, really you're a happiness factor when the right people are doing the right role in the company. They're happier. And when they're happier, that reflects in everything that they're doing. My customers are gonna see that, hear that, feel that it creates a positive feedback loop. The culture is gonna see that, and it again, it's a positive cycle, positive feedback loop. How am I doing with all that?

Hugh Massie: You are doing extremely well. Happiness is a big factor. People have gotta be happy. And that starts with the person at the top. If they're not happy, then it's gonna breed. discontent and, and, , and a lack of joy all the way through the business. And so every person [00:42:00] has gotta be happy, in a sense, at home and at work.

That's a really important place to get people to. and I think the impediment to happiness is stress. And so, , what we're really doing is optimizing people's talents. And financial behaviors. Getting them into the right, place so they can flourish and do that with far less stress.

That's not, you know,, stress isn't, I'm not talking about the stress of a deadline. , I've gotta work some extra hours to get a project done. Or you've got two months even working harder for a couple of months and talking about, Long-term overwork is not good. But, I think the stress of I'm not comfortable with details or that I can't just consistently research stuff to the level that's required, or I'm in a communication setting that's not right for me, or I'm expected to innovate.

I'm not that kind of person. Whatever it is, that's a deeper stress. You, you're being put in a place to where you're being asked to perform in areas that you inherently can't. That's problematic [00:43:00] that kind of stress needs to be removed, right?

Healthy Stress Culture

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so talk to me about stress for just a moment. Because stress, it's, for me, it's not a balance. I don't believe in balance. If you

Hugh Massie: Yep.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Go to Hollywood. Watch a movie. Read a fiction book. I don't believe balance exists in life, in nature, in business, around the personal side, it's always about blending. How do we get that blend of stress? Because too much stress is on the one extreme, not great to health issues, all kinds of other not so great things. Having no stress though, on the flip side, isn't necessarily positive either because I don't have that positive stress, if I can use that word to give me that motivation, that ambition.

Okay, wow. really wanna perform on here because all eyes are on me. This is really important. So how do I, both as a founder, but for my team. Make sure that it's a healthy environment and a healthy stress.

Hugh Massie: To me it comes back to, inside the business, there needs to be the right relationship, culture where people feel like they, you know,, and that comes back to [00:44:00] psychological safety, where people feel like they can speak up. I think , when there's a problem or they can confront an issue with another person or not just be blasted back at there needs to be in the business.

Accountability, the goals. For the business and better for each person need to be fair and reasonable, but they needs to be, , if you wanna call it smart goals in a sense that there's some achievement required. There's a bit of adrenaline, I think doesn't hurt anybody to push themselves a bit harder, but having to do that on an over the top basis.

Where you are then not able to ever see your family or do some sports or something social or have a bit of fun or some time off. That's not good either. So there's a sustainability level, but I'm where you are a balanced life of sort of. If that means start work at nine o'clock and finish at five o'clock every day in a linear basis, that doesn't work for every person.

I think there's, , some of us work better in the [00:45:00] morning than others. Some are better at night. Some are happy, , working five hours a day, seven days a week, there's lots of different formulas for all of us. Others need freedom. you know, , It's a matter of is it probably, is the goal achieved and do you create the environment That's congenial enough though, for every person to, flourish and achieve goals.

I think, that's what's important. But we don't need to put undue mental pressure or stress on people, , either, like bullying is something that can't be in the workplace.

Jeffrey Feldberg: As you're talking about that, that really is the key in the sense of, Jeffrey, let us find out the DNA makeup of your people from a leadership perspective, from a team member perspective. And Hugh, as we're talking about this. Looking back on my own journey, I, I'm remembering some team members, their currency was money. Jeffrey, you want to throw a little bit more at me? I can take a little more pressure, a little bit more stress because I'm motivated by that. Because my goal is I want to earn more money, but others, were on the opposite side. [00:46:00] Money's not important to me. Jeffrey, give me some time off. I value my time off.

I value my time with my family. you can add more stress to me. It's not gonna work in your favor because I am away from my family. I'm missing my family. So create an environment for me. Where I can do what's needed for the business and at the same time, I'm maximizing my time with the family. And what you're doing behind the scenes, you and the team exactly that.

You're giving me the recipe, if you will, the formula, the DNA behavior, pun intended with your company to get the best results for my team.

Hugh Massie: And Right, and understanding what every person's. Motivator is, and not making an assumption about that really important.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely. 

Stress Aging and Money

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so Hugh, before we do go into rapid mode, is there an important question that you and I haven't covered yet that you want to get out there to do? Both Nation?

Hugh Massie: this is sort of sitting in my mind, Jeffrey, 'cause we've talked about stress and we've touched on health and I know that. Health's something that's really important, I think we can't emphasize that part enough to ensure that, , we as [00:47:00] entrepreneurs are healthy, that we do understand the stress that we're under and the impact, well, I think not, enough people in the health space talk about is the fact that stress accelerates aging and it's aging that causes most diseases.

And then if , if we can reduce the stress, then we obviously can potentially slow down the aging and live better. and the thing that causes stress is money. and so that's where the problem is. And as you said before, it's not just throwing more vitamins at a person that might be, , not helping or doing the wrong things.

causing problems elsewhere, or not solving the root cause problem. and, , stress causes people to drink more alcohol, which is a problem. Smoke and drink and eat sugar sugary, , bad carbohydrate foods. you look like you're a pretty healthy guy. So I know you've got all that sorted out.

I'm assuming you have, but I think this is why we've gotta focus on stress, and that means people have gotta be living in a aligned life. They've gotta be honest with themselves, authentic and honest [00:48:00] with the people around them.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Some great insights there. Deport nation stress, as Hugh was alluding to, it leads to inflammation. It's literally rusting from the inside out. So if we took a. Steel pole and we left that steel pole outside nature doing its course. That pole will eventually begin to rust and eventually it'll crumble, that's the human body from the inside out.

We don't see it. Stress can help accelerate that and we

Hugh Massie: Yep.

Jeffrey Feldberg: don't wanna be doing that. So you're right. If we can understand our behavior, go through your DNA behavior process and systems. Know what works, what doesn't work for both myself, also, my team members minimize that stress or have a healthy kind of stress.

Just like when I go to the gym, it's a healthy stress. It'll help me build muscle. Not too much, not too little, just the right amount. The Goldilock scenario going on there when I know what that is, we can get the most out of that. So do both nations. Some terrific insights and takeaways there. 

Back to Future Wisdom

Jeffrey Feldberg: But all that said, Hugh, we're gonna go into wrap up mode.

It's a tradition here on the Deep Podcast. It's both my privilege and honor where I ask every guest the same question. It's a fun [00:49:00] question. Let me set this up with you. you think of the movie Back to the Future, you have that magical DeLorean car that will take you to any point in time. Hugh, imagine now, and this is the fun part, is tomorrow morning you look outside your window. Not only is the DeLorean car curbside, the door is open, it's waiting for you to hop on in what you do, and you're now gonna go to any point in your life you as. A young child, a teenager, whatever point in time it would be. What would you tell your younger self in terms of life lessons or life wisdom or, Hey, you do this but don't do that. What would it sound like?

Hugh Massie: Yeah, I, I think that the message is time tells you a lot of things and to be patient.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Love that. So be patient. I. Be patient time tells you a lot of things, and another way, Hey Jeffrey, enjoy the journey. Maybe it's not as quick as you would like. Just be patient. Everything's gonna work out.

Hugh Massie: Yeah. And, and I believe that part too. Enjoy the journey and, , everything happens for a reason and you're richer for it, and you can capitalize on, it, including the mistakes.

Jeffrey Feldberg: So there you have a Deep Wealth Nation. Be patient. Enjoy the journey. What seems [00:50:00] like a mistake or the worst time of your life, chances are when you look back, may be one of the best times of your life. You just don't know it yet, but it's heading your way. 

Where to Find Hugh

Jeffrey Feldberg: And Hugh, before we wrap this up, somebody in Deep Wealth Nation, they have a question for you and the DNA behavior team, or they wanna work with you.

They want to go through your whole process and your system, them and the team. Where would be the best place online to reach you?

Hugh Massie: Yeah, so go to dna behavior.com. There's plenty. Of content materials there that you can read, access, you can learn about me there. If you wanna send me an email at DNA care, at dna behavior.com or to my personal email address, Hugh [dot] Massey [at] dnabehavior [dot] com. Delighted to answer it and help you on your journey.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And Deep Wealth Nation. It doesn't get any better or easier. This is all in the show notes. It's a point and click. Well, he was official. This is a. Wrap. And as we love to say here, Deep Wealth may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain healthy and safe. Thank you so much.

Subscribe and Support

Jeffrey Feldberg: So there you have it, Deep Wealth Nation. 

What did you think? 

So with all that said and as we [00:51:00] wrap it up, I have another question for you.

Actually, it's more of a personal favor. 

Did you find this episode helpful? 

Have you found other episodes of the Deep Wealth Podcast empowering and a game changer for your journey? 

And if you said yes, and I really hope you did, I have a small but really meaningful way that you can actually help us out and keep these episodes coming to you.

Are you ready for it? 

The dramatic pause. I'll just wait a moment. Drumroll, please. Subscribe. Please subscribe to the Deep Wealth podcast on your favorite podcast channel. When you subscribe to the Deep Wealth Podcast, you're saving yourself time. Every episode automatically comes to you, and I want you to know that we meticulously craft Every one of our episodes to have impactful strategies, stories, expert insights that are designed to help you grow your profits, increase the value of your business, and yes, even optimize your post exit life and your life right now, whatever you want that to look like.

And every time you subscribe and a fellow entrepreneur subscribe, it's a testament to how together, Yes, we are. We are changing the social [00:52:00] fabric of society. One business owner at a time, one liquidity event at a time. So don't let the momentum stop here. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast channel.

You'll never miss an episode. You'll be the first to hear from the top industry leaders, the innovators, the disruptors that are really changing and shaping the business world, and maybe you're commuting, maybe you're at the gym, maybe you're taking a well deserved break that we spoke all about on this episode.

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Final Thanks and Signoff

Jeffrey Feldberg: So all that said. Thank you so much for listening. And remember your wealth isn't just about the money in the bank. It's about the depth of your journey and the impact that you're creating. So let's continue this journey together. And from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for listening to this episode.

And as we love to say here at Deep Wealth, may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain [00:53:00] healthy and safe. 

Thank you so much. 

God bless.