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Oct. 31, 2022

Best Selling Author And Thought Leader Carol Sanford Reveals How To Be A Positive Contrarian And Welcome Massive Success (#173)

Best Selling Author And Thought Leader Carol Sanford Reveals How To Be A Positive Contrarian And Welcome Massive Success (#173)
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“Be in the present moment.” - Carol Sanford

Carol Sanford is a #1 Amazon best-selling, multiple award-winning (six book) author and business educator, Summit Producer, and podcaster. She is consistently recognized thought leader working side by side with Fortune 500 and new economy executives in designing and leading systemic business change and design. Through her university and in-house educational offerings, global speaking platforms, best-selling, multi-award-winning books, and developmental work, Carol works with executive leaders who see the possibility to change the nature of work through developing people and work systems that ignite motivation everywhere. For four decades, Carol has worked with great leaders of successful businesses such as Google, DuPont, Intel, P&G, and Seventh Generation, educating them to develop people and ensure a continuous stream of innovation that continually deliver extraordinary outcomes.

Carola is the author of The Regenerative Business, The Responsible Entrepreneur, The Responsible Business The Regenerative Life,, and No More Feedback: Cultivate Consciousness at Work. Her books have won over 27 awards so far and are required reading at leading multiple departments at Universities including Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and MIT. Carol also partners with producing Executive Education through Babson College, Kaospilot in Denmark, University of Washington, and The Lewis Institute at Babson as Senior  Fellow of Social Innovation. For 40 years she’s collaborated with clients to develop people to grow and express their inherent singularity. Google’s Food Lab uses her Responsible Business Framework. Learn more at and the Business Second Opinion podcast.

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Carol Sanford

Carol Sanford (@carolsanford) / Twitter

Books - Carol Sanford

Carol Sanford - Executive Producer at The Regenerative Business Summit, 5X TEDx, #1 Amazon Best Seller, Sr Fellow of Social Innovation Babson College - Greater Seattle Area | LinkedIn

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Your liquidity event is the most important financial transaction of your life. You have one chance to get it right, and you better make it count. 

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Enjoy the interview!


[00:00:00] Jeffrey Feldberg: Welcome to the Deep Wealth Podcast where you learn how to extract your business and personal Deep Wealth.

I'm your host Jeffrey Feldberg.

This podcast is brought to you by Deep Wealth and the 90-day Deep Wealth Experience.

When it comes to your business deep wealth, your exit or liquidity event is the most important financial decision of your life.

But unfortunately, up to 90% of liquidity events fail. Think about all that time and your hard earned money wasted.

Of the quote unquote "successful" liquidity events, most business owners leave 50% to over 100% of the deal value in the buyer's pocket and don't even know it.

I should know. I said "no" to a seven-figure offer. And "yes" to mastering the art and the science of a liquidity event. Two years later, I said "yes" to a different buyer with a nine figure deal.

Are you thinking about an exit or liquidity event?

Don't become a statistic and make the fatal mistake of believing the skills that built your business are the same ones to sell it.

After all, how can you master something you've never done before?

Let the 90-day Deep Wealth Experience and the 9-step roadmap of preparation help you capture the best deal instead of any deal.

At the end of this episode, take a moment and hear from business owners like you, who went through the Deep Wealth Experience.

Carol Sanford is a number one Amazon bestselling, multiple award winning author and Business Educator, Summit Producer, and Podcaster. She is a consistently recognized thought leader, working side by side with Fortune 500 and new economy executives in designing and leading systematic business changes and design. Through her university and in-house educational offerings, global speaking platforms, best-selling multi award winning books and development work, Carol works with executive leaders who see the possibility to change the nature of work through developing people and work systems that ignite motivation everywhere.

For four decades, Carol has worked with great leaders of successful businesses, such as Google, DuPont, Intel ,P&G, and Seventh Generation educating them to develop people and ensure a continuous stream of innovation that continually deliver extraordinary outcomes.

Carol is the author of The Regenerative Business, The Responsible Entrepreneur, The Responsible Business, The Regenerate Life, and No More Feedback: Cultivate Consciousness at Work. Her books have won over 27 awards and are required reading at leading multiple departments at universities, including Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and MIT.

Carol also partners with producing executive education through Babson College, Kaospilot in Denmark, University of Washington, and The Lewis Institute at Babson as a Senior Fellow of Social innovation

For 40 years, she's collaborated with clients to develop people, to grow and express their inherent singularity. Google's Food Lab uses her Responsible Business Framework.

Welcome to the Deep Wealth podcast, and did you get a load of that introduction? We are in the presence of an all star. We have a thought leader, bestselling author, podcaster, someone who is making a difference out there.

Maybe some of the companies you haven't heard of. I'll say a company like Google. I don't know if you've heard of that or DuPont, but that's the caliber of individuals that we're working with. So I'm gonna stop right there. We have a lot to talk about. Carol, Welcome to the Deep Wealth Podcast. There's always a story behind the story.

Carol, what's your story? What got you to where you are today?

[00:04:02] Carol Sanford: Jeffrey, thanks for inviting me. I listened to some of your other podcasts and it made me really look forward today cuz you actually care about the answers. So thank you. So my story is a long one. I just turned 80 years old last weekend, so I'm gonna pick some highlights here. I would say overall my life about who I am comes from having been a contrarian since I was very young, I had a father who was not a nice man and he was always within the law, but not good to other humans, including his children, but had on balance a grandfather who was Indigenous and so he taught me how to live with this person. What a gift.

To learn how to be nonjudgmental about someone who didn't even like you Very well, it seemed, cuz I was always told I wasn't very smart. And of course, that made me wanna prove I was. The key to that story was my grandfather taught me a whole different way to see the world and I realized I already was seeing things, you know, one else saw.

So I decided somehow to disagree with people forever and not out of meanness, or not out just trying to be honoring but to speak to what people couldn't see. Now I got a big step on that with meeting Thomas Coon, who wrote a book called The Structure of the Scientific Revolution. He introduced all of us to the paradigm shift.

And every business owner understands that because the nature of being a great business and growing it is you can see something no one else can see because you're looking at it a different way. And Thomas Coon, I take classes with him when I was at uc, Berkeley and he was constantly talking to us about how gradually, but then a kinda big shift would take place in how people saw the world. Mostly in science. He was talking about, and I asked him, a bunch of us did. How do you help people shift paradigms because that's the key to marketing, the key to product development? The key to your life being successful is to get outside of, as we all jokingly say, the box.

He said to all of us, That's your job. Starting immediately, I tried to figure out a way for people to actually see the paradigm they were in and what the options were. And by the time I was 27, I was kinda known for disrupting about everything people thought. And I then later equated my own first two businesses, one of my grew large and sold it to a big Fortune 500 company.

The other one I sold to individuals, but it made me wanna go. Worked with businesses and I ended up teaching in a business school, the third largest business school in the nation in Silicon Valley called San Jose State, which most people are surprised at. And I had. Intel inside. As a part of my group, I met Steve Jobs.

I convinced him to send his engineers to a program. I was one of six faculty in that combined business education, urban systems, and Cybernet systems now we call it information technology, but if you came in, you've studied all three of those and I was one of the faculty, so Steve agreed, sent 12 engineers the first year and then did that again.

And then eventually it became a part of the program we ran with Apple. And so I've had some extraordinary experiences. And you mentioned Google, DuPont, and working with really big companies, it's exciting, but the favorite work I have done is with small companies and midsize, like Seventh Generation.

You know, People who have changed the world for the better while they grew a business. And just so you know that being good is not a bad financial choice. My companies, everyone I've worked with have grown their revenue 35 to 65% per annum first five years on whatever system we show to work on. So it's good for visits, but it's also good for investors and owners.

So there's a how I am, who I am at a top level.

[00:08:44] Jeffrey Feldberg: Oh my goodness, Carol, there is so much there to unpack. Every one of those could be an episode in and of itself. Love the story. Going back to the early days with Apple and Steve Jobs and interactions and just what you're doing and of course, having two businesses that you had an Exit from. I mean, That's what we're all here about on Deep. Wealth. But let me circle back. You mentioned that you're a contrarian and for some people being a contrarian is a pain in the you know what for them? But as you're saying that, I was reminded of one of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to reform, pause or reflect, and you're so right Carola because you have a gift and you found your superpower of being a contrarian, of being able to see things that other people don't see. You've channeled that in the business world to create market disruptions and growth and add Deep. Wealth. That's our step number one in our nine-step roadmap.

The big picture where we look for. Inflection points where the marketplace is changing, what we can do that we're not doing, what we should stop doing, perhaps that we are doing. But I wanted to ask you this with your whole contrarian look, with your experience as a business owner, you're coming up now, you're creating your seventh book.

You've had a run of just incredible best sellers and will have in the show notes the links, you can point and click to be able to see them. How do you decide to write a book, Carol, and how for the seventh book that's coming up, how do you pick the topics?

[00:10:15] Carol Sanford: Well, Let me add one thing to the contrarian that's important to understand in my answer, which is my grandfather said I was a positive contrarian, not a negative one. And what he meant by that was I was always looking, and I call it essence, that's who I am. I was born that way. I was doing it from when I was six years old, and what I'm doing when I write a book, I'm seeing something that as I work with people that most people can't yet see.

One of my early books about that if you wanna do strategy that makes the greatest growth path, don't start from trends. Don't start from what it is that you see it going on the market. Start with the essence of you. You are so with Jeffrey Hollander, and by the way, I'll tell you how I end up writing books, but Jeffrey Hollander and I do this with every CEO I work with.

His essence turns out to be transparency and really confronting systemic dissonance. That means somebody who says one thing and do another. He was doing, when he was a kid, he got in trouble with his father, with his whole family, and yet when we revealed that as a part of the early work we do, we then converted into everything about his business.

He became fully transparent by putting on a box where it's not legally required. And so all the ingredients, that's true in food. You have to do it, but not and every time they made a mistake, they published it. And people, they became the most trusted company. And people therefore would follow their lead with new products.

What we did with Seventh generation has created a whole brand around pointing out systemic dissonance and then making sure they were transpired by who they were and became the most trusted band. Now, I used to try and get the chairman of DuPont and by the way, all these people write the forwards to my books.

The chairman of DuPont, who for one window of time really took on creating a healthy planet. I would go to him say, Would you talk to this client and tell them about your experience with me in this work? And say sure, but why don't you write a book? I'll write the forward, I'll tell people in the book, and then it's available and I have to talk to one after another.

And you, if you go look at my in print, six books everyone has a major leader in the field, has two people, always a man and a woman. Always an academician where I'm connected like Babson College or Harvard, and always a business leader, men, and women. And so they all wanted me to put it in a book.

So that they could share the book with other friends they had. So that's why I ended up writing cuz they insisted and I didn't think of being as a good writer, but I found tons of great editors and people who helped me make it work. So the subject is always about what I think people can't see the core idea.

Like true in my summit I do every year also. I take an impossible subject that I think people are working on it in a non-regenerative, non-living system way. Like last year we did racism. It's a criminal process. It's horrible. All cism racism, genderism, ageism and we looked at what's the core behind all of these?

How does that happen? And we worked on a totally new way of working using what I'd done in South Africa on racism, where Mandela and the Up giving us an award because we were able to restructure work and design out opportunities for people to have undermine one another because they were in a hierarchy.

This year we're gonna do the same thing with democracy. So everything I put on every book I write is about the fundamental underlying thing that's driving something and why we're working on the wrong way.

[00:14:41] Jeffrey Feldberg: And for our listeners, we will have in the show notes a link to the summit so you can check that out and hear what Carol and Company have to say about that. And Carol, I'm wondering. As you've worked with leaders from all different walks of life, small businesses, leaders, big businesses, everything else in between, when it comes to change and when it comes to seeing the market disruption or the inflection points as leaders, why don't we talk with what most leaders are missing in the first place, to be able to find those market disruptions that can either put them out of business by the competition.

Or they can put themselves out of their business so they can go into a bigger business. But where are we missing the mark as business owners?

[00:15:27] Carol Sanford: Well, We're using bits and models, which were made popular in bits and schools.

If small businesses, mid-size ones may have a deep desire to be different, but they go borrow the old way of thinking, the old way of running a business, The old way of planning innovating either some business goal or some popular person who wrote a book.

And so, I wrote one book on why change needs to start in a very different place. And that book is called Indirect Work. And the problem is businesses work on direct work. Now let me tell you what that means. Albert Einstein said be careful when you try and create change because you're likely to use the old paradigm you were using to try and create the new solution.

And you have to change. Now, most people interpret that is meaning my way. You should use, everybody should use it when and I can tell you what Einstein actually meant because Edward Teller who was my professor of physics studied with Einstein and the classroom like I did with Coon, asked Einstein what he meant.

He said it's a difference between a build-your-ball view of the world and a matrix view. Now what he meant by that was an image in your mind playing pool, we call it. And you think there are pockets on the table. There are balls on the table and there's a cue, stick and there's me. He said most of the time we thinking like us. Sir Isaac Newton thought, which was the world is, has some ideals, the pockets, it has a bunch of people on it, the players, and then can have an a cue stick me who can move it all.

So you get a CEO or a consultant who come in and they try and rearrange where the players are getting them in pockets. Now, Einstein said, That's insane for one. Think how often you really hit the pocket you shoot for, rarely.

And so you have an image you used as a perfect cue stick knowing how to move people.

You got a motivation theory that it's your job to move them toward the pocket you pick. He said That's our major problem. The world doesn't actually work that way. It's very not random but entangled and has distance effects. Things that happened. We didn't mean. What we need is a new paradigm that's like the quantum paradigm, which is like a matrix.

So, one example in the movie, The Matrix has some of this in it, but what he said is think about a baby in a womb you do not work on deciding who that maybe will be, what it will look like, how it will grow, what the best you can do. And it was speaking to hopefully, of mothers in thinking about this is create a healthy womb, a healthy matrix, the baby decides.

And so he said Until we get over the idea that we can get a perfect plan, a perfect model of change, a perfect way to go after innovation we will not understand how the world really works. So indirect work said the bill, your ball model is in the direct. The matrix model is indirect. And what I mean by that is you grow capability of everyone in your organization.

You help them learn to think better, learn to manage themselves better, learn to see the world more systemically. Cause we nearly do everything indirectly and shifting. So we work on change from building capability, building culture, building consciousness, all that other stuff arrives. Now I know people think, Oh, it's magic.

It's a hell of a lot of work to build a capacity for people to think with precision, systemically, in a way that they can see different levels of work. If you quit trying to find the edge, going out there and looking, and then moving everybody toward it. Instead, teach all your people to think systemically, to think from a more whole framework, you are gonna get there in a much faster, more certain way.

[00:19:58] Jeffrey Feldberg: And so Carol, let's talk about that because what you're saying is interesting and is right there in front of us, but sometimes what's right in front of us is invisible for most people. And really what you said was, hey, business owners stop trying to use old models, old ways of doing things for a new kind of product or service, or market disruption.

Things change, The marketplace changes. And in particular, you referenced your most recent book, Indirect Work at Regenerative Change Theory for Businesses, Communities, Institutions, and Humans. And Carol, in going through that book, what I loved about that, it's on the one hand a very complex topic that you're dealing with, but on the other hand, you make it simple.

Not to confuse simple with simplicity, and I loved how you really walk the reader through more or less eight different steps, and one of them, which was interesting to me because you don't see it talked a lot about in the business lingo, was your chapter number seven.

Was consciousness. Now you talked about culture, which is expected capability, resourcing. You talk about change and technology and all that would be expected, but then you put into the middle of the mix consciousness, so why don't you share it with our readers? Why did you do that?

[00:21:15] Carol Sanford: We are born as human beings incomplete in that sense. I mean, we know physically we're born and have to grow up, but we mentally and intellectually are also very immature and there's nothing in any of our systems that work to help people be able to see the world and how it works. And so the work we do, when we're in a company and they're using for many years, and I don't do this anymore, I now have a few hundred people who are part of my team who do.

You go out and you teach people to watch their own thinking, using frameworks and noticing when they're trying to do the billiard ball versus the matrix by having a way to observe their thinking and If you, instead of having a model which you're using, you have a way to assess your thinking.

Now you have to be in a mode call consciousness to do that. You're divided self. You have a self that's operating in the world and doing things and a self that watches itself. And then there's a third process, which is you say it aims to guide yourself. So I'm, let's say I tend to be judgemental.

It's one of the things I've had to work on all my life. And so I have a framework that's about being reactive or arrogant or purposeful in service of something. And so if I'm working and I can create, that's a divided self, I can say, Ah, I'm watching me get cook. Are triggered. Those are like psychological words, which also did a lot of studying on my doctorate.

But the key is I learned to watch myself by dividing self they can watch. That's a way of thinking about consciousness and then giving direction to myself and watching to see how well I do that. I say that in companies, the most important process they have is reflection. And reflection with frameworks.

So take that one. I just did. Reactive ego, purposeful. A company might when they're working on strategy, say, All right, at the end of today, let's stop and see. How often are we reactive is we're doing strategic thinking? How often are we trying to figure out how to change something cuz we think it's right and we're instead getting hook with our own arrogant or our own insecurity, and the group talks about it and say what is our aim? Now, that's another level of consciousness. I can see me in terms of my behavior, but I can direct myself. This is the most precious ableness of a company to build because most of what takes companies off course after the regular old models is their inability to see how they're leading themselves astray with their own motions.

They are not observed their own incomplete thinking. And so consciousness about the capacity to be aware and mindful of self, to be able to direct self and to see the effects, everything we decide is gonna have happen. Now you're not at the risk of whatever's changing and all the uncertainty, but without that capacity, you tend to be one of the bigger balls on the table being hit by the universe into some brand of pocket.

[00:24:53] Jeffrey Feldberg: You know what's interesting, Carol, and for our listeners, I hope you picked up on this because it was very subtle. What Carol suggested and really when it comes to the world of business, you don't hear this a lot, but Carol, you're saying the number one thing in your opinion that as business leaders we should be doing more of if we want to grow the company, be successful, create a market disruption.

After all, who doesn't wanna do that? And for the listeners of the Deep Wealth community, if you're like most business owners, for most business owners, 90% of them, their wealth is locked in the business. So in other words, if they want to get their financial freedom. That's not happening until they have some kind of Exit or liquidity event.

And if you follow that line of thinking, Carol, to get that financial freedom, you've gotta know what to do in your Exit or liquidity event. And then you actually gotta have a successful one, 90% of liquidity events fail, and for business owners that are having a liquidity event, they're leaving 50% to over a hundred percent in the buyer's pocket.

So not good news. But at the heart of a successful liquidity event is a company that's growing. And if I heard you correctly, Carol, what you're suggesting is on the art side of the business side, which is really when it comes to business, you're saying reflective, time taking, time out, thinking, reflecting, what's going on.

And as business leaders, we're not doing enough of that. And so for our listeners, if you're saying Carol, okay, I hear you. But that sounds, I don't know a little bit out there. Again, let's remember who we're dealing with. Carol, who's dealt with the Steve Jobs of the world, with Apple and DuPont and Google, and all these Fortune 10, Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies.

She knows what she's talking about and she's been in the trenches with that. So Carol reflection that is the rocket fuel for success.

[00:26:43] Carol Sanford: Reflection with a framework. This is really important. And it's not once in a while, it's not. Take tempera time out every three months. It's several times a day. I suggest that when people walk into a meeting, they talk about, where's my state of being? And everyone, you don't have any talk about it out loud, just asking that question.

People know as well. I'm accountable, low energy level, and noticing that will move me. Now when we getting ready to leave you guys, what moves, what changes, what evolves? Never reflect on what's right, wrong, good and bad, or polar opposite, because that'll keep you stuck. Reflection with the framework about how you're moving.

How you're evolving, how you're growing, how you're changing, because this builds the neural network to see yourself as an evolving being and it should never a day go by every night in my journal reflect on like you asked me when we first got on. How's your day been so far? Tonight we'll really look at that depth with a framework like reactive, ego, purposeful, I mentioned I will ask what's my aim for today.

So I'm getting a call with you. What's my aim in this podcast and my aim for today having gone and listened to your interviews? Was be connected, really connect to what Jeffrey's asking because I can sometimes wander around and go after an unfocused thing, but you are such a good person, and asking questions, it gave me a way to aim me.

So that's what reflection does for you, brings you fully present to what you've been doing, how you're going, where you're going next, not whether you're good or bad, or get rid of all that judgemental.

[00:28:36] Jeffrey Feldberg: And I love what you're saying there, so it's not just any reflection like you do in a SWOT analysis. What are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? Don't do that. Put that off to the side. Really momentum. How are we moving? Are we moving forward? Just that kind of reflection. That's very different.

Carol, with what you're putting out there, it's actually refreshing to hear that.

[00:28:56] Carol Sanford: My work is built on three sources. Indigenous teachings from my grandfather, and also from otherwise, teachers like Socrates. These are ideas. I didn't create anything.

I do nothing, zero. Everything I have come from the most ancient, most successful track record have changed. They come out of quantum theory, lineage teachers, and indigenous wisdom, and I had the good sense to listen.

[00:29:26] Jeffrey Feldberg: And you know what? That's so refreshing to hear that, hey, this isn't just really from me. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. Here's who they are. And you name them. And for all the listeners out there, are you following Carol's lead? Are you trying to invent the wheel yourself?

Or are you smart enough to say, you know what, who else is out there that I can learn from, that I can leverage from? And you have one immediate takeaway coming outta hear from what Carol was sharing of reflection in a framework of how you're moving forward, which he just shared with us, is based on proven things for over thousands of years.

If you're going back that far, Carol, with what you've done and what you've said, if I can ask, and maybe we can get a little bit of a sneak peek here, Carol, for your seventh book, the sixth book was a game changer and you know what you've done and just that framework and how you simplified it.

What's going on with your seventh book? Are you able to share that with us?

[00:30:17] Carol Sanford: You bet. I'm going do talk about the major foundational theory we have that to undermine everything we do. Started 100 years ago with behaviorism. The title is No More Gold Stars. If you do anything that's about rewards, recognition, feedback you're on the billiard ball table trying to get people in the pockets you chose, and So this book is about why democracy is falling apart because we have no longer teach people.

When public school became mandate, who was founded with behaviorism, behavioral theory, behavior modification, rewards, all that stuff, and it undermined the organic learning that children and adults did where they were working. Application is the same time. So children were educated on farms or in the company business I was even, and real fundamental purpose of this book is how to teach people to think for themselves again. Cause otherwise they're at the mercy of what I call lunatics, which are the people wandering around looking for something and they find people who don't care about helping you think.

They want you to think like them. It's how we get fake news and cult and whereas people can't think for themselves and they're afraid. They're terribly afraid, so they become susceptible to this. The way we need to work is changing the fundamental theory we have about. Education or a epistemology, which is how we learn and know back to how do people become self-developing, self-determining critical thinking skills for themselves.

And unless we can change that in the military, the education system, families business, We're gonna increasingly have people who are told what to think, told how to think graded by someone else on how well they're doing, and not building the skills so people can be critical. Not in make it wrong sense, but being precise.

And so this book is how we would need to rebuild all our institutions. How to know when you're doing what the practices are I've used. 47 years now. They're designed to teach people to think for themselves. If you do that in your business, teach everyone to think for themselves, your business will get these 35 to 65% growth.

Things that I'm talking about. And I tell you what those practices need to look like in the book but it also will save democracy because if you work with people in your company to be better thinkers, They will go out and be better citizens and they will be better educating themselves on how to vote and your children will not be subject to peer pressure will reduce much of the impact of drugs which come from people not thinking for themselves but trying to be in the in group.

All of those are symptoms of a system we have now built where no one can think for themselves, including I have a 23-year-old grandson and he and are having a wonderful conversation cause he's super bright graduating at the top of his class in the computer science and I, so I play with him all the time and say, How well can you think for yourself?

I'm gonna you a subject and he'll. Whew. Not very well. I said, So no one taught you how to do that, Ray. So we're building and he's beginning to really feel that he was, knowledge transfer is the wrong method. He could pass any test score at the top, but if you give him a how to save democracy, we don't teach people how to work on those big questions.

[00:34:22] Jeffrey Feldberg: And Carol, I shouldn't be surprised that no more Gold star. I love the title. I love what you're doing. I love the theme. And offline, you and I were talking a little bit about this, and with everyone listening in, I would love your thoughts because it does seem like we're talking offline. That as a country, we've lost our North Star as a world we've lost our North Star.

And with social media in particular, everyone's like sheep and they're just doing as they're told. They're not really thinking for themselves like you're saying.

What really is the, in your opinion, the root cause that got us to where we are today?

[00:34:56] Carol Sanford: We wanna centralize, we wanna find the essence, what's at the heart? And when that started was the 1900s when we the Industrial Revolution built companies and people moved on farms to having factory farming and no jobs, no ownership of land when they went to companies. The behavior is a demand named John Watson, literally, and he's written this blatantly, We need to take charge of education and convince teachers and educators and parents, they don't know how to do it and let the psychologist take over for them IQ tests.

We introduced testing with introduced Corey kill that someone else would find, not even the teacher. They said, we're gonna simplify all this and we're gonna be in control of it. So the psychologist said, when the behavioral school inundated the military they built. They argued for and got compulsory education with their curriculum, with their knowledge transfer, with kids only being tested on what they've been told, not any of their own answers and even dissertations with argued against my dissertation were built only on the existing accepted idea.

You had to always have something that you were building on, not your own thinking. So when the industrial evolution changed, education and psychology did we have now had 120 years people undermining people's ability to think and we gotta change that.

[00:36:37] Jeffrey Feldberg: And you know what, what's interesting as business owners in my books, we make the world go round. We find these painful problems and we solve them. And I really like how you're approaching this. And by the way, essential. Instead of simplifying. I like that. I'm gonna borrow that word from you, if that's okay.

[00:36:53] Carol Sanford: Absolutely. It's not my word,

[00:36:57] Jeffrey Feldberg: And really with your book and with the summit, you're putting it back out there. And if you can think about the possibilities as business owners, when we can think for ourselves, when we can have our team think for themselves, Wow. That's where the magic happens and where we can differentiate ourselves and we can find those marketplace inflections.

Jump on. Make a difference and you're talking about the high levels of growth While there you have it, so well said and we'll look forward to the book. When's that gonna be coming out?

[00:37:26] Carol Sanford: It'll be mid-2023

[00:37:29] Jeffrey Feldberg: Okay, so not too far. Just around the corner. And we also have your upcoming summit in about a month's time, and so we'll have this podcast there just before that, and people can get a link and become a participant in that and learn from that. Carol, honestly, I could take a down so many rabbit holes here and would have such enjoyment doing that. We're starting to run up against some time pressures, so perhaps this can be a rain check of Carol, where we can have you back and talk about more insights and just these terrific mind shifting changes that you've found, that you've implemented, that we can get out there to more people so that they can make a difference in their business.

But why don't we start to wrap things up. It's a fun thought experiment, and I really mean it when I say I've had the privilege. I've had the privilege of every guest who comes onto the default podcast to ask this. So let me set this up for you and then I'll ask the question. I'd like you to think about the movie Back to the Future.

And in the movie, you have this magical DeLorean car that will take you to any point in time. So Carol, here's where the fun starts. Imagine now it's tomorrow morning. You look outside your window, you see this DeLorean car, curbside. It's not only sitting there, but the door is open and is waiting for you to hop on in so you can go to any point in your life, Carol, as a young child, a teenager, whatever point in time it would be.

Carol, what would you be telling your younger self in terms of life lessons or life wisdom or, Hey Carol, do this, but don't do that. What would that sound?

[00:39:03] Carol Sanford: I never saw that movie cuz I don't watch movies. What I would say is be in the present moment, any thought about wanting to be anywhere else means I'm still dragging something with me from the past or living in a wishful future. For me, the most important thing is there's really no such thing as time.

It's even Einstein that we created this idea, which really messes up what really matters is be here now. Bringing whatever you can bring now and future doesn't exist either. The future's being created by every moment of how your own consciousness is working right now. And I don't have any different place or time.

I just like to be better and not falling out of time and thinking is real.

[00:39:51] Jeffrey Feldberg: Carol, you left us with a lot to unpack. They're right at the very end of this episode, but you're spot on and the quantum physics that you're throwing out there with Einstein and just some of the concepts are absolutely terrific. Hopefully, to be continued, Carol, where we'll have another time and date where we can do this.

But in the interim, as we wrap up this episode, Carolyn, and again, we're gonna have all of your resources and there's a lot of resources, we're gonna have them in the show notes. It'll be a point and click. If someone would like to reach you online, what would be the best place?

[00:40:23] Carol Sanford: I have a website called It's all about me, so you can start there. I don't mind people emailing me as long as they don't expect me to answer questions online. That doesn't work. I have communities people can join and then you can be in ongoing conversations with me about developing your capability around these kinds of things and including take them into your business.

And I have always about 20 businesses working together in community. So start out at and you'll find links to all those opportunities.

[00:41:05] Jeffrey Feldberg: In order for our listeners, please take Carol up on her offer. You have a bonafide thought leader, Changemaker. She's moving in all the right circles with the thought leaders and her besting books. It doesn't get any better. So there you have it. Carol, as we wrap up this episode, a heartfelt thank you for your insights and for your wisdom.

And as we always like to say, please stay healthy and safe.

[00:41:27] Carol Sanford: Thank you, Jeffrey.

[00:41:28] Sharon S.: The Deep Wealth Experience was definitely a game-changer for me.

[00:41:31] Lyn M.: This course is one of the best investments you will ever make because you will get an ROI of a hundred times that. Anybody who doesn't go through it will lose millions.

[00:41:41] Kam H.: If you don't have time for this program, you'll never have time for a successful liquidity

[00:41:46] Sharon S.: It was the best value of any business course I've ever taken. The money was very well spent.

[00:41:52] Lyn M.: Compared to when we first began, today I feel better prepared, but in some respects, may be less prepared, not because of the course, but because the course brought to light so many things that I thought we were on top of that we need to fix.

[00:42:08] Kam H.: I 100% believe there's never a great time for a business owner to allocate extra hours into his or her week or day. So it's an investment that will yield results today. I thought I will reap the benefit of this program in three to five years down the road. But as soon as I stepped forward into the program, my mind changed immediately.

[00:42:30] Sharon S.: There was so much value in the experience that the time I invested paid back so much for the energy that was expended.

[00:42:41] Lyn M.: The Deep Wealth Experience compared to other programs is the top. What we learned is very practical. Sometimes you learn stuff that it's great to learn, but you never use it. The stuff we learned from Deep Wealth Experience, I believe it's going to benefit us a boatload.

[00:42:54] Kam H.: I've done an executive MBA. I've worked for billion-dollar companies before. I've worked for smaller companies before I started my business. I've been running my business successfully now for getting close to a decade. We're on a growth trajectory. Reflecting back on the Deep Wealth, I knew less than 10% what I know now, maybe close to 1% even.

[00:43:12] Sharon S.: Hands down the best program in which I've ever participated. And we've done a lot of different things over the years. We've been in other mastermind groups, gone to many seminars, workshops, conferences, retreats, read books. This was so different. I haven't had an experience that's anything close to this in all the years that we've been at this.

It's five-star, A-plus.

[00:43:39] Kam H.: I would highly recommend it to any super busy business owner out there.

Deep Wealth is an accurate name for it. This program leads to deeper wealth and happier wealth, not just deeper wealth. I don't think there's a dollar value that could be associated with such an experience and knowledge that could be applied today and forever.

[00:43:58] Jeffrey Feldberg: Are you leaving millions on the table?

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