Klaus Meyer On How To Position Your Business For Success In The New Economy (#010)

‍Steve Wells: [00:00:00] This is Steve Wells 

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:00:06] And I'm Jeffrey Feldberg. Welcome to the Sell My Business Podcast. 

Steve Wells: [00:00:11] This podcast is brought to you by Deep Wealth. Are you a business owner who is wondering how to either grow your business, sell it, or both? Or maybe in today's environment, you're wondering how to make your business pandemic proof.

Visit deepwealth.com to find out how you can master the strategies to grow and extract the deep wealth from your business. Visit www.deepwealth.com 

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:00:34] Steve, I know you're excited as I am for today's guest. We’re honored to have Dr. Klaus Meyer with us, who's a professor of international business at the Ivy business school at the University of Western Ontario.

He joined in 2017 after six years at the China Europe international business school in Shanghai. Dr. Meyer is a leading scholar in the field of international business, especially with foreign entry strategies in emerging economies. He's published over 70 articles in leading scholarly journals. 

Klaus, it's an honor to have you with us today. Your accomplishments read like an encyclopedia and you bring with you experience from all over the world, from Asia to Europe to North America, and your insights today will be of great interest to our community of what this whole new normal is like after the pandemic.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Why don't you begin by telling us your background and what you've been doing for the past short while? 

Klaus Meyer: [00:01:41] I am a professor of international business at the Ivy Business School, here in London, Ontario, and I've been with Ivey now for two and a half years. Before that, I was spent six years in China.

And before that, I spent most of my life in Europe, including places like London Business school, Copenhagen Business School.  university of Bath. although originally, I'm from Germany rather than from, from Denmark. I'm studying in particular international business, but I'm also interested in entrepreneurship, especially how entrepreneurs can focus on things strategically.

When thinking about, the crisis, I've been thinking about this kind of question in the context of the global financial crisis we had in 2008, 2009. And some of those things now come up again in a different format. 

Steve Wells: [00:02:39] So Klaus, as entrepreneurs or business owners are looking to survive in the months and maybe years ahead, many people think that it's going take more than just radical cutbacks.

It's going to take radical innovation for them to go forward. how would you look at this? Pre and during and post pandemic place that we find ourselves in. What kind of questions should the business owner or entrepreneur be asking? 

 Klaus Meyer: [00:03:06] I think the first, important piece of putting together your strategy is to think about the time dimension.

You are addressing certain things in the short run. That's what you have to do now to keep you up, keep people happy, to keep your customers on board. You also have to think about the new normal, which will be in the long run, but there's also a period immediately after crisis where in some industries things will be different.

Let me try to explain what I mean with this in between period, if you are selling cars or washing machines or dishwashers, you are facing a severe recession. Now, demand is down. People aren't coming to your shops. But that demand is pushed forward. People still need a new car or a new dishwasher.

Our dishwasher broke down two weeks ago. We haven't done anything about it yet. Under normal circumstances we would have bought one. So once the shops are opening up again, we've looked at buying a dishwasher. So, if you end up in the business or producing cars or dishwashers, you can expect demand is down.

You will have a strong recovery in the short run, and then probably normalize. In the service industries, you wouldn't have that catch up. Right? If you don't go to a restaurant, you're not going to go more to restaurants or movies after the crisis. So, in an ideal scenario, you would then be going back towards something that is the old normal.

So, what happens immediately after crisis varies a lot of what type of business mainly let's think about the new normal, the long term. Where is your business going to be? Where is your industry going to be in the longer run? And how does your business fit into that new industry? There's, you need to sort of identify the longer-term trends, and I've come up with a set of questions to ask.

I don't know where the future's going to be, but let's go through the questions.  You need to address this question for your industry. You bring your experts, your piece together to discuss this, right? And the basic question is, how will you as an organization be different and how will your customers be different?

Let me start with strategic agility. I think some companies are showing a lot of flexibility, creativity that they haven't shown before the crisis, including large companies that have a lot of internal inertia, et cetera. Suddenly they, they are acting more flexible.

They are acting entrepreneurially or some people in the organization act, entrepreneurially, and in an ideal world you would like to carry the strategic agility forward. This entrepreneurial spirit that you suddenly discover during the crisis can be a resource in the long term. You're all more flexible, reacting to what happens in the marketplace.

That is an optimistic scenario, I admit, but I think it's, if you doing a lot of things in the short run, you can think of that helping you develop a certain way of thinking that helps you in the long term 

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:06:07] Klaus, you bring up a key point. Strategic agility means different things to different businesses owners, depending on the industry that they're in, but things have changed.

 With your international background, you have seen how everything is tied in together globally is not just doing business in your backyard. What happens in Asia, what happens in Europe can affect you as we've seen with the pandemic. So as a business owner and the teams in business start to think strategically, and they bring in agility to their analysis, like you're talking about.

So, in your strategic agility, what kinds of questions should businesses be asking on how to thrive in what's now an international marketplace? 

 Klaus Meyer: [00:06:57] A lot of global supply chains potentially are disrupted in the short term. And if you are an organization that is very efficiency oriented, sort of keeping inventory levels at a very low level by 

sending the orders out to your suppliers in the moment your customer orders. So, you have an extreme efficiency in your supply chain, no slack in the supply chain, then you are very vulnerable to disruptions.

Every crisis that we've seen, whether it's a financial crisis a decade ago or other crisis that were more regional, companies that are too much efficiency oriented, suffer most because it's the slack in the organization. that enables you to respond. You have people who have a little bit extra time that can put that time to solving problems.

You have a little bit inventory that you can push to the customer while your suppliers are not delivering, et cetera. So, in terms of, building in slack, building in flexibility in your operations, risk management, has to rethink about how you approach. and the other thing is about having contingency plan in the, in the drawer, but literally so you can pull them out and implement them.

So, if you have a global supply chain, you have to think about risk management. And that in terms means building flexibility and possibly building some slack. Into those value chains. 

Steve Wells: [00:08:23] So Klaus, if we look at the industries and companies and organizations, it's like a bell curve at the bottom.

Let's just say it's 10% are not coming back at the top. Let's just say 10%. in your Amazon, your Zoom, your Netflix, you're doing well. The middle, 80% is where these companies have to look at themselves. And I've heard it said that really every organization is now a startup. They're going to have to change everything that they look at, from their employee mix to how they use technology.

 What are some of the things that you think they should address, if they're reexamining their company?

Klaus Meyer: [00:09:00] Companies are using new technologies for their operations, whether that's video conference tools, like what we're using right now, whether that is automation in manufacturing, because you don't want your people to stand too close together on the manufacturing line, whether you introduce more robots.

Whether you introduced more artificial intelligence in things like the, the triage stage in hospitals, or whether you have, ordering in the restaurants and hospitality sector. You have, computers or robots that do the check in or, or take the orders instead of a waitress coming in to you.

They are technologies can be used to, reduce human interface. That's important in the short run, although the technology solutions may be a little bit expensive or it takes a while to implement that. But I think some of that will persist in the future, especially if those technologies also have additional benefits such as cost savings, especially saving on labor costs.

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:10:13] So when you asked the question, how will your business be different? And you've already talked about strategic agility, technology breakthroughs. Do you have human capital? You have organizational systems, you have brand value, risk management that you've touched upon.

If you look back to 2008 and then you compare that to the pandemic that we're going through right now. What would be some of the common things that you've seen that are similar between 2008 and the current pandemic? 

Klaus Meyer: [00:10:46] Well, the similarity is on the purely economic impact, right? So as a recession, demand goes down, companies need to think about how'd they survive the crisis.

I think there's an important difference that in 2008 there wasn't necessarily the expectation that the new normal afterwards would be very different except in the financial sector.  In the financial sector that some things have changed as a consequence of the crisis, regulatory changes have happened.

Maybe some risk management practices have changed in some organizations who find themselves more prepared. I think it's more interesting actually, to look at Asia and what's happening now in Asia. Not just in China, but also Singapore. those countries have gone through SARS crisis in 2003.

The reason businesses and also people in general are better able to handle the crisis right now has to do with the SARS crisis. People are more able to, more flexibly move to online models, and that's, it's supposed to do with consumer attitude. And it's with the capabilities of businesses.

Partly online businesses have been developed. The SARS crisis was a major push towards online shopping, for example. But also, people have been thinking about the possibility of a pandemic and have prepared themselves. Let me give you an example. I was talking to a colleague in Singapore, an hour ago.

The beauty of Zoom nowadays, you talk to colleagues at the other one the much more regularly than before. So, one of the things he shared is that the kids in Singapore day, they can't physically go to school, but the school is offering online learning. The kids are sitting in front of the computer at 8:30 in the morning and start interacting with a teacher 

Here it's more like the school is sending some assignment, which then has to be submitted by the end of the day. And the supervision is really up to the parents, who are looking after the kids becomes a full-time job, or at least for one of the parents. And so, the schools here are much less prepared to move on to online.

So next time a pandemic will hit North America schools, hopefully will be more prepared in terms of technology. But also, in terms of teachers being trained to use that technology. 

Steve Wells: [00:13:16] It's interesting Klaus that what you're saying then, which I didn't think about it, but you know, I maybe Taiwan and you're the expert, you're Singapore.

Some of these Asian countries because of SARS and other things, they were more pandemic proof because of this past history. 

So that's interesting. So. You know, if, so, if you, you're here in North America, in the United States, let's say, and, I mean, how do you look at your customer? You're in university setting.

I bet you the university probably is having a tough time fundraising or any organization might have a hard time fundraising. Do they need to think about, who their constituents they have right now and build that loyalty or trust? I mean, how will, how will a customer be different. 

Klaus Meyer: [00:13:59] Universities are thinking about that. I'm not sure about, fundraising. In terms of, what's actually happening in the classroom. We are moving a lot of things online. Business school professors, perhaps a little bit more flexibly than others because we are closer to business. My entrepreneurial spirit in a business school and maybe in some other faculties.

But what is the challenge for us is the fact that we do very interactive teaching. If you do traditional teaching and you just talk in front of computer instead of talking in front of a large group and deliver your lecture, it's actually less adjustment. But really thinking through how you can bring in a meaningful learning experience to students using online media.

The big question is, will students join us in the future? So the new intake of students, especially in the postgraduate programs, which in terms of revenues are more important for, especially for business schools. And that two issues. First of all, people choose an MBA program because of the face to face interaction and the networking and all those sorts of things that would be very difficult to replicate.

So, will we be able to attract people in the MBA, EMBA executive education programs? Question Mark. The second issue is that because of travel restrictions, it would be more difficult to attract students from overseas. That is especially an issue for those universities that have a high share of Chinese students because Chinese students are very reluctant to go overseas these days.

So, some institutions will be, on the other hand, that is a positive effect that may counterbalance this during the recession, people lose their job and may decide to go back to education. Take another degree program. So, there is an opportunity too, for higher education, to tap into that a market of people who are between jobs and use the opportunity to go for another degree.

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:16:01] Klaus  you are in a unique position in that with you being a thought leader in what you're doing as you analyze business, and international markets, you having lived in different countries in many ways you have a crystal ball because when you were in Asia,  it sounds like the businesses in Asia had a business vaccine heading into this pandemic because they had lived through the 2003 SARS and, and then again in 2008 and they're more prepared for this pandemic that's with us. So, with your insights and your thought leadership, as we look to a business owner in the U S.

Look at things as the glass is half empty or the glass is half full because there are what, what were yesterday doesn't work today. And what's more it looks like nobody knows. So, based on what you've seen in Asia and how businesses reacted and responded, what would be some strategies or some takeaways that businesses in the US should start not only thinking about, but also implementing and doing. 

Klaus Meyer: [00:17:14] Yeah. I think that, especially coming from China, as I mentioned earlier, I've lived in Shanghai for six years in the area of, online to offline businesses. There is a lot of things happening in China, and there's a lot of potential for that feeding back. Of course, the online business has started in California, but it has been pushed and forward in China in recent, years, some of which has to do with urban densities.

So, the online delivery will always be cheaper if you live in a big city as opposed to a small city. Because the cost of last mile.  And in Shanghai's is a warehouse serves a lot of people, you have a motorcycle driver who is paid very little and probably no insurance at all, whereas that last mile is much more expensive.

If you're a, the customers are more dispersed and the transportation costs are higher. So, there are some constraints on that, but there are some things in terms of how you manage to online business, how you. inform the customer of where the product is in the supply chain to make sure that once the customer orders it. the customer gets the correct and precise information when it's delivered. How you manage the actual interface between the delivery person and the, and the, the customer. There are a lot of things that, that have evolved.  And now other businesses, not just online shopping, but, integration of online and offline businesses where you order online, someone picks up your laundry, brings it back the next, 24 hours or 48 hours later, everything is clean.

Those sorts of business ideas, so I think there is a lot of scope in North America to do more in the area of, online businesses. There's one constraint that I see. We have relatively dominant power by Amazon and arguably by Uber in the transportation sector. But then I'm not always satisfied with the service.

So, if someone gets the local logistics, the reliability, the speed of delivery, better then Amazon, or a more reliable service then than Uber.  Then they can break into that market because there is a fast growth opportunity now, and I think a lot of that may have very well initially happened at the local level.

Steve Wells: [00:19:42] It's interesting Klaus, you said, and I've noticed that in myself. there are some things, that the, the supply chain for Amazon is now slower and you see some other online retailers are responding and, providing whatever the product is quicker. Do you think that this might, as you just began to mention a boost for the, the local business or local producers that, we haven't seen in the past? 

Klaus Meyer: [00:20:07] I think there certainly an opportunity here if you are, especially in the food industry, whether they'd be talking fresh foods, or that we'd talk about, cooked meals. Restaurant quality cooked meals, where the critical logistic is locally. Ultimately. the purpose of the food supply chain is getting the produce from the farmer to the consumer's home. Nowadays to a lot of different intermediaries that goes w where the food goes through the process then goes through supermarket, et cetera, et cetera.

So, if some businesses, are able to connect local farmers to local consumers' homes, bypassing some of those intermediary steps, that might be an opportunity. And, if consumers value fresh foods. That they may value those direct connections to the local farming community.  

Steve Wells: [00:21:07] What you're saying is the farm to table trend use has been around for a long time.

Well, the table is not the restaurant table. It's the a in the home table. and it might be an opportunity. 

Klaus Meyer: [00:21:18] I think it's both and this time it means the home table. One thing I noticed here, when I come to North America the retail stores, offer you something they call online business and then you still have to go there and you pay extra for the service.

Well, what’s, advantage then?  What I'm used to from Shanghai is. before leaving office, my wife goes on the internet, orders a liter of milk or whatever we need for dinner. And by the time we are arrive at home, half an hour and an hour later, it's there and we can prepare dinner.

 So of course, as I said earlier, some of this has to do with urban density, so you can't exactly replicate in a, a relatively small town. That's sort of services that you have in an ever megalopolis, like Shanghai, which has 23 million people.

Just put it in perspective. So, there's some things about, delivery services that you can't necessarily replicate, but there is a long way to go in terms of what services you get here. When you order an Amazon, they don't give you a precise date. Sometimes the stuff is broken when it arrives, and then you have to actually go to the post office to send it back. Or if you go to the supermarkets is click and collect thing. I know the supermarkets are thinking about changing that, but if you have an online shopping model that where that stuff is in the warehouse, maybe even a fully automated warehouse as it, it's sort of a state of the art nowadays in many parts of the world.

So, where the robots sort of put the order together, you can organize your logistics much more efficiently. Then if the online order goes to an assistant who runs around the regular shop and collects the item that you need.  Just as a basic example, if you have a warehouse-based system, you have the most frequent orders close to the checkout. Whereas in the traditional shop, you have the most frequent things far away because you want the customer to walk through the shop, right? So, having online orders through a traditional shop is not the most efficient way of doing it. Now, this is not a terribly new idea.

Companies are working on it, including the retail, but it's, it's not implemented that way, but it's one of the reasons why online shopping hasn't picked up as much in the part of North America where I am. If Amazon doesn't deliver that means other people can come up with better solutions. 

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:23:50] Klaus, you've mentioned two things that I'd like to tie together. What you mentioned earlier is the, at one point, the just in time, inventory was all the rage and how efficient you are for businesses became important.

But you've highlighted that in this pandemic, what helped your bottom line and helped you in an efficiency way, not only could hurt you today, but it could put you out of business. And it sounds like from a strategy point that businesses need to rethink how efficient they want to be if they want to be prepared for unforeseen events.

And then the other thing that you said was there now may be an opportunity through technology for local businesses to thrive in a way that wasn't possible before. When you have giants like Amazon and Uber and other companies that are there, why don't you talk about, for our audience, how they can think about where they are locally with technology that perhaps is not as efficient as the bigger companies, but they're going to offer better service, more convenience than what isn't there right now. And even in some of the smaller towns that traditionally have been more difficult to, to implement a system like that. Perhaps in your opinion, has a pandemic opened up new doors for people who want to be innovative with technology and, the message that they're now going to bring to the marketplace in their customers?

Klaus Meyer: [00:25:27] The questions to start from is how has consumer attitudes, how consumer preferences changed with respect to things like low price, standardized product versus fresh food, local produced food.  In the short run. I think people recognize that having a local link to the farming community in the local area, actually means that your, your supplies more reliable.

In an ideal world, business would hope that this attitude change to the preference for local food may persist. Now, the challenge for the entrepreneur is to come up with a business model that taps into this attitude change in the consumer and makes it persistent. Try to come up with an offering that the traditional supermarket cannot offer.

Whether that is about how you organize your supply chain, or how do you ensure that the products consumer get is fresh? Now, one thing that I've come across, again in China, but I think in North America there's some business models like that too. So, it's a direct farm to a household delivery, like a subscription model.

Every week you get a box of vegetables. Directly from the farm. You don't know what you get in advance because the farmer's sort of puts together what's seasonally available. But there is an agreement that you will get at a fixed, certain costs, a box of vegetables every week.

I could imagine a lot of people buying into that model and once the that becomes established the farmers can persist with that model.  So, this just one of the one idea, I don't think we can say in general that a local supply chains will remain the preferred option, but I think now is an opportunity for those who have ideas around localizing supply chains to push those out and convince the consumers.

Entrepreneurship is about risk taking after all. So, I'm not going to give you a foolproof solution yet.   

Steve Wells: [00:27:34] Klaus, so let's continue along that thought. Let me see if you have any ideas on, on consumer behavior, because you're, you're describing what, what the local consumer behavior would be in the short term.

How, how do you see consumer behavior at your, the best you can guess longer term. Particularly if you think of some luxury goods, other areas that are being harmed. it seems like there's a feeling among consumers not to be too wasteful because they don't know what the economy's going to do to them.

 How do you think that might impact the consumer going forward? 

Klaus Meyer: [00:28:08] I don't expect too much change there. There are segments of consumers who are very environmentally conscious, and there are others who are not conscious at all, right? As you see, some people buy, cars are getting bigger and bigger and bigger at the same time.

People are switching to electrical cars, but it's different strata of its population, right? So, the consumers buying luxury goods. Some of them like environmentally awareness and they are getting concerned about how far the product has been shipped and so on and the carbon footprint and things like that.

But there's another side of the consumers who don't care about that, and I don't think that is fundamentally going to change as a consequence of the crisis. Also, I don't think the crisis, per se means that we are, have to disrupt global supply chains. If the good product is from the other end of the world, we will be able to get it here.

The risk in that area is really more in the area of politics than in the area of the crisis, per se.  Nationalistic politics can disrupt a lot of global supply chains, and I think that is a significant risk, but that is a completely different source of risk. It's not the pandemic per se, that's causing that.

It's the more the national politics in the US for example. But some other countries too that attach to global supply chains. I don't think that consumers will switch away from consumer durables that are imported from other countries.  I don't see the decision criteria would change.

Steve Wells: [00:29:44] And so let's think a little bit about brand. Is there opportunity to acquire new customers, or should you concentrate on making sure you shore up your, your existing customers? Or is that, is that going to vary? 

Klaus Meyer: [00:29:58] The simple answer is both, right? You need to make sure that you don't lose customers because you deliver a poor service, right?

If Amazon is lengthening the delivery times for products that we ordered with them, the risk is we look for other suppliers and we happen to be satisfied with them and therefore we stick with them. We ordered directly from some of the brands that we might otherwise have bought through Amazon because we find different channels.

So, you need to keep your existing customers satisfied. But at the same time, especially for a small business, there is an opportunity to think about new groups of customers who you may be able to address now because you realize that the big companies who stay maybe more rigid business models. I'm not able to cater to them.

Then the challenge is to make that relationship, that new relationships sustainable. I don't think that's, you know, or question, but every business needs to address that for themselves 

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:30:58] Klaus as we look to the future of what everyone seems to be calling this new normal and what at Deep Wealth, what we say here is you must learn how to pivot so that you can profit. You've had the benefit of global experience of where you lived, where you've worked, and you've seen different cultures and societies react in different ways. If you take a North American perspective and we look at the new normal that's unfolding before our eyes.

What would be your best guess of how things are going to change for businesses and consumers and how businesses can best respond to whatever these new things in the new normal is going to be like? 

Klaus Meyer: [00:31:49] My optimistic guess is that where's the digital economy and other technological innovations. People will be able to maintain that standard of living, by changing some of their behaviors, by having high quality of life and, forms of entertainment and getting consumer goods, et cetera. it's a technology driven, digital economy driven sort of economic boom, that I see as the positive, scenario. What else do I foresee? Well, there will be changes in the healthcare sector that however, it's likely to be quite different in the US and in other countries because the way of the healthcare system is organized.

 There are a lot of opportunities in healthcare delivery, at least on the, on the regular, not on the very complex issues, but what happens in daily health care activities.

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:32:43] So regulation will certainly play a role in, in healthcare. And I suspect other industries as well. Would that be an area business should be becoming more involved in to have a role in the say in that.

Klaus Meyer: [00:32:54] Well, if you are innovating in this sphere of developing online apps that help people monitor their health, that help connecting doctors to patients, that help doctors to analyze patient data, a lot of things are happening in that space, and because of the crisis, there is an opportunity for pushing those things forward to market.

Steve Wells: [00:33:24] I'm really just intrigued to see if there's anything else that you could tell us about your Asian experience and what you see in business that they have done. And we've talked a little bit about the pandemic prep by having SARS.

Is there anything else that they're doing that you think over here in here in North America that would be helpful to our businesses? 

Klaus Meyer: [00:33:46] We talked about innovation in healthcare. We talked about, innovation in education from the youngest age or from the age where people and the kids start using computers to experience business school type education. Opportunities are huge. We talked also on online shopping. We talked about integration of online and offline businesses. And if so, which often involves you order something online and the service is delivered to your home, like laundry services or, booking your, your space in some entertainment event.

The use of robots. Actually, one of the fascinating thing is maybe to share I left Shanghai three years ago, and at that time, the new thing was you could, there's certain restaurants where you would sit down, you scan the, code on the table, and then on your iPad, you get the menu, you plug-in the order and, pay online with WeChat and then, the waitress brings your food, so there's no interaction other than online with the restaurants and before you actually get the food to your table and actually just wasn't sitting outside sort of table. actually, one thing I noticed in North America, QR codes are not very common. In Asia you have them everywhere where people scan in the QR code directly, go to a certain website where they can input their order.

In this case, a restaurant where you get to the menu and you click on how many things do you want or which item. you get to the checkout, you put in your, payment details. In this case, preferred method of payment is WeChat, and then the food is delivered. That’s another idea of what, where things have been going in, in Asia, and I'm sure not just in Shanghai, but in Singapore or that places as well.

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:35:45] Klaus, fascinating. And one would hope that. Whatever change that the pandemic has brought in, a negative way out of that will come positive change for all of us globally as we begin to look forward. Now, if our community would like to find more information about you, where can they do this?

Klaus Meyer: [00:36:06] I can be found by Googling Klaus Meyer at Ivy or Ivy Business School. I've written a lot of on international business topics, but I've also been blogging on some of the issues related to corporate response to crisis. 

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:36:23] Terrific. And we'll certainly include that in the show notes. So, here's a question that we ask all of our guests when they come on, and I'm going to put you on the spot because there's probably so many things that you could choose from.

Klaus if you were a business owner and you could do one thing coming out of this pandemic that you could not just survive, but to thrive. What would that one thing be?

Klaus Meyer: [00:36:50] Develop a better supply chain to support online shopping in the local area, which has a lot to do with developing things in the local community. So, people order and they know exactly when they get the product and it will be very soon. And that has to do with developing your software and your systems, but also have local distributors who can do the last mile for you.

I think that's an area where Amazon is not doing good enough.

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:37:28] That's a terrific insight and one of the many nuggets of wisdom that you've shared with us today. Well, as we wrap things up, Klaus, a big thank you. We know you're busy, for making yourself available and sharing your insights and your strategies for business owners who want to thrive in this pandemic and, and prepare themselves for whatever may be ahead.

Thank you so much for coming on the interview today with us. 

Klaus Meyer: [00:37:55] You're welcome. 

Steve Wells: [00:37:56] Thank you Klaus. 

Klaus Meyer: [00:37:57] You want a find a word? 

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:37:59] Absolutely. 

Klaus Meyer: [00:38:00] Calling on entrepreneurs society needs you. 

Steve Wells: [00:38:06] Excellent! 

Klaus Meyer: [00:38:07] We need entrepreneurs to solve the crisis. 

 Thank you. Bye bye. 

Steve Wells: [00:38:11] Bye bye.