513 Benjamin Dennehy

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Introduction to Benjamin Dennehy: The UK's Most Hated Sales Trainer

Jeffrey Feldberg: Benjamin Dennehy does not try to be liked, and that's exactly why so many people listen to him. Known as the UK's most hated sales trainer, Benjamin has built a reputation by saying the things most people in business are thinking, but rarely say out loud. He challenges the polite lies around selling, dismantles outdated scripts and forces business owners to confront an uncomfortable truth. Most people are not bad at sales because they're unethical, they're bad because they're scared.

Benjamin's journey into sales was not polished or privileged. It was forged in rejection, real conversations, and the pressure of having to make selling work when there is no safety net.

Over time, that experience shaped the philosophy that strips sales back to honesty, responsibility, and personal standards. No hype, no manipulation, no excuses. Today, he works with entrepreneurs, founders, and teams who [00:01:00] want results without selling their soul.

His work has sparked backlash, loyalty and intense debates often at the same time. But whether people agree with him or not, they listen and many quietly admit he changed how they think about selling confidence and self-respect. Benjamin is not here to make sales comfortable. He's here to make it clear.

Sponsor Message: Deep Wealth Mastery Program

Jeffrey Feldberg: And before we start the episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Deep Wealth and the Deep Wealth Mastery Program. Here's Bill, a graduate, who says, the Deep Wealth Mastery Program has transformed the KPIs we're using to accelerate growth and profits.

Or how about Emry, who says, and I love this, and I quote, the Deep Wealth Mastery Program helped me create the right mindset for both growing my business and later my future exit. I now know what questions to ask, what to do and what not to do, which is priceless. The team and I have found dangerous skeletons and gaps that we're now addressing due to the Deep Wealth program. Today, our actions have a [00:02:00] massive ROI. 

Absolutely love that. 

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And I gotta tell you, as I hear these testimonials, this is exactly why I do what I do. My mission, the team's mission here at Deep Wealth, is to literally change the social fabric of society, one business owner at a time and one liquidity event at a time.

The Deep Wealth Mastery program, it's the only one based on a nine figure deal. And that deal, that was my deal. You know my story. I said no to a seven figure offer. I created a system that we now call Deep Wealth Mastery and that's exactly what helped myself and my business partners welcome from a different buyer, a different offer, a nine figure deal.

So if [00:03:00] you're interested in growing your profits, preparing for a future liquidity event, Whether that's three years away or 33 years away, and if you want to optimize your post exit life, Deep Wealth Mastery is for you. 

Please email success at deepwealth. com. Again, that's success, S U C C E S S at deepwealth. com. 

We'll send you all the information about the Deep Wealth Mastery Program, otherwise known as the Scale for Ultimate Sales System. Better yet, why not hop on a complimentary strategy call? We'll see where you are at your business and what's standing between you and your financial independence and your dreams.

So that's where you want to be. You want to be with other successful business owners, entrepreneurs, and founders, just like you, who are looking to create market disruptions, whether you're a startup, whether you've been in business for three or four decades, whether you're manufacturing, whether you're a high tech, SaaS, low tech, whatever the case may be.

Come on in and network with other business owners, with other businesses, just like you, because they all want to lock in their financial freedom and enjoy [00:04:00] both success and fulfillment. Again, the 90 day Deep Wealth Mastery Program, it has your name on it. All you need to do is take the next step. Please send an email to success at deepwealth. com. 

Opening Question: Do You Suck at Selling?

Jeffrey Feldberg: Deep Wealth Nation welcome to another episode of the Deep Wealth Podcast, deep Nation. Let me be blunt. Let me ask you a question. I want an honest answer.

Do you or your team, do you suck at selling?

And if you're like most companies, I don't care how big you are, the answer is probably yes. The answer is probably yes, Jeffrey this is the one area that our company is the weakest. I've lost money, I've wasted time on hires.

What do I do?

Where do I begin?

It's so frustrating. Great News Deep Wealth Nation. We have the UK's most hated sales trainer in the House of Deep Wealth today. He's quite a character. You're gonna love him, and I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.

Benjamin Dennehy's Journey into Sales

Jeffrey Feldberg: So Benjamin, welcome to the Depot podcast. An absolute pleasure to have you with us. There is always a story behind the story. What's your story? What got you from where you were to where you are today?

Benjamin Dennehy: That's a bizarre story. Like I say to virtually everyone when I ask this question. [00:05:00] I never wanted to be in sales. I had, dreams, I had hopes, I had aspirations. When you're at school and someone says to you, when you grow up, what do you wanna be? No one ever says, oh or salesman.

Nah. No. Sales is what you do when you've got nothing else to do. You're a failed social worker. As I like to point out, you have more pointless appointments and meetings than a social worker. I'm a qualified you'd say the United States an attorney. I qualified as a lawyer. My goal was to be a criminal defense lawyer.

That's what I wanted to do. But of course, you leave university and, I always had an inversion to working, which is bizarre considering I spent five years training to be a lawyer. But I wanted to go traveling. And a good friend of mine who was a lawyer who was practicing, said, why don't you go to England?

Your parents are British. You can get a British passport. Go to England. I said, why the hell not? So I turned up in England, 24 years old, other than a degree in law and a qualification to practice. I had no skills. So what do you do if you look good at a [00:06:00] suit? You don't dribble and you can string a sentence together.

Get a job at sales 'cause that's the only people that are hiring. And I started off in recruitment. I set a company record. I was in the company for six months. Didn't recruit a single human being. I was utterly shited it. But I had one particular skill which the company kept me on for. I was very good at phoning up people and getting them to agree to meet with us.

A unique skill prospecting, they called it canvassing back in the day. I did that for about 15 years and I started doing it in advertising particularly. So I started a recruitment. I was poached, ironically, by a company that was a lead generation, and all they did was set meetings for appointments with advertising agencies in London.

I knew, I dunno anything about advertising, I dunno anything about marketing. But in my first month I set up about 14 meetings with marketing directors, brand directors. And they were like, how do you do what you do? And the honest answer, I I have no idea. [00:07:00] And a CEO of an advertising agency that hired me once said, if you can figure out why you are so good, the money isn't teaching other people how to do it.

He goes, you need to figure out why you're good. I said, that's a good point. And so I went on the journey of trying to figure out why what I did on the phone worked. It took me down, psychology, it took me down. Communication took me down all these different avenues of trying to figure out. Once I figured it out, I could then systemize it.

I could show you how to repeat it, and then you just keep doing it. So my background is I never wanted to be a salesman. It's like I say, it's by default, not by design, but now I get paid more than a lawyer and if I **** up, no one goes to jail.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Sounds like quite the journey. I love it. Absolutely love that. 

The Biggest Mistakes Entrepreneurs Make in Sales

Jeffrey Feldberg: So let's start, instead of like most entrepreneurs, the glass is always half full. Let's do it as half empty. Whether I'm a founder or I'm bringing on my first salesperson, or maybe I'm already in sales. Where are we as professional salespeople?

Where are we getting it wrong? What's the BS that we're believing or the Kool-Aid [00:08:00] that we're drinking? That's completely wrong. We've gotta stop it right now and today.

Benjamin Dennehy: Okay, so entrepreneur. I admire entrepreneurs. Technically, I'm an entrepreneur. I never considered myself as one. I wish the French had a word for it, but they don't. So my question, the biggest challenge that entrepreneurs have is entrepreneurs are ideas. People, they come up with an idea or a concept that can fix or solve a problem.

That's great. In fact, everybody has had a million dollar idea. The problem is getting it to market. So they're very good at coming up with an ideas and they're very good. When you first start selling something, you are passionate and you can get that low hanging fruit, and if you go in there and scream a lot and bang drums and people buy into that, but you always hit a plate.

' cause there's only so much of that you can achieve. And most entrepreneurs are not salespeople. They're people with an idea and then they suddenly realize, oh my goodness, I'm in sales. The first bit wasn't easy 'cause I'm so passionate. But I point out to people, your business is like your firstborn child.

You love it. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's beautiful, it's wonderful. But to everybody else, it's [00:09:00] just another baby. So how am I gonna get people to buy into this concept? So what they end up doing is they end up hiring. Salespeople. But if you are not a salesperson, how do you hire a good salesperson And they get, how would I put it?

They get overwhelmed or they buy into, most salespeople are very good at selling themselves in. They're very bad. Once on payroll. I often say, I've said this to so many entrepreneurs and presidents and CEOs. I said, have you ever noticed it when you hire someone, they all interview like Tom Cruise, but once they get on payroll, they turn into Mr.

Bean and it's like, yes it is. So they seem good on paper. They interview well, of course they do. That's the one time they're only good at selling anything is getting in front of you. But the challenge is if you don't know what a good salesperson looks like, how can you hire one? And most companies spend a small fortune hiring duds and losers because they think a good salesman's they've got personality, they're likable. But actually, if you stand back and look at them [00:10:00] during the process, how many questions did they ask you? How many times did they challenge you? How did they make you feel? And most people don't know how to interview for that. And so the biggest failure if you're an entrepreneur is hiring people that can't sell but come across like they can.

It's a very expensive mistake.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Wow. Benjamin, you just took my whole entrepreneurial journey in a few sentences there. That was exactly my experience. You're right, My biggest failure in my company, as successful as it was, and my biggest failure as a leader. Was I failed to bring in really good salespeople.

Yes, they, Shawn in that interview, in fact, they did such a good job on selling in the interview. That was the best sales job they ever did. And to your point, it was downhill after that. Okay? So we've established that, and you're right. How can you master the art of hiring a salesperson if perhaps you're not one yourself?

You don't know what to look for, what to do. So what do we do? You've established that. So what do we do now?

How to Hire the Right Salespeople

Benjamin Dennehy: so what you gotta do is, first of all, you've gotta make the interview process tough, and I think most people [00:11:00] approach the recruitment process of being quite nice with a bit of kick gloves on. So when I help companies recruit, and if I'm in the room, I'll look at the sales when I say, okay, fine, great. I want you to make some phone calls in front of me.

Now, I want you to prospect into this company and I wanna listen to you. I wanna hear how you deal with the gatekeeper. I wanna see if you get past the gatekeeper, and I wanna see how you deal with the decision maker. So here's a list of CEOs, not heads of marketing, not marketing managers, not CEOs. The toughest people to get in front of.

Call them down. And the reason I do this is they are now under pressure. You are hiring the under pressure person. You're not hiring the slick, coveted interviewee they've practiced for the interview. That's irrelevant. Once you're on payroll, you are no longer in interview mode. So I wanna see right now, how are you gonna perform under pressure?

You'll be amazed at the number of people that a will refuse to make calls, yet they've just told you in the five proceeding minutes that they're good at prospecting. [00:12:00] They give you these excuses and they go well, I dunno what your product is, but products are relevant, selling your existing company. Just do it now.

And so you've gotta put them under pressure because the person you are hiring under pressure is what you're gonna be hiring. And then I listened to them and most struggled to get past gatekeepers. I go How sorry. So I've got this wrong. You mentioned what, this is your first month in sars?

No, I've been doing this for three years. So if you've been doing this for three years, how are you struggling to get past gatekeepers? What the hell have you been doing? Most salespeople talk a good game, but they cannot actually apply anything. So my job is to put the pressure on. CEOs love it, but they also hate it because you know what happens is 99% of people you interview fail.

They can't do it. And most people, when they're hiring just say, oh, let's just get someone in. And it usually goes like this. They've had nine interviews. One guy walks in or one lady and they interview well, and they look at each other and they quite like them. Yeah, they're good. And then they say, let's give them a shot.

Do you know how many m theses have [00:13:00] said that when they're hiring you and they say, oh my God, we literally did that last month. It's literally, we've had so many crap. The one person that isn't crap, the viewers, let's give 'em a shot. Would you hire a lawyer? Would you hire a surgeon If that was your standard?

I've looked at nine. They're all You seem okay. Let's, Let's give it a go. No, you wouldn't. And so you must make the interview process tough. You must put them under pressure. You must see, because how they react under pressure is what they're gonna be like on payroll. And then the other thing I'll do is I'll listen to them and then I'll say, okay, what I'd like you to do now is I want you to phone someone up, but I want you to say it like this.

There are two types of people, those that can do it and those that can't. So anybody that is able to adapt under pressure is someone worth investing in. Because a good salesperson is able to adapt. So you get some people so stuck in their ways. They can't do anything different. No. Good. And one other thing I'd give, I hire salespeople.

I help companies. You'll get inundated with cvs. If you've got a [00:14:00] job post-op saying salesperson wanted, you'll be inundated. Get a burner phone, just a mobile phone, a cell phone, as you'd say in the United States, it's a very simple little test. Just say, look, thank you for applying for the job.

What I want you to do is phone this number and leave me a voice message that would make me want to call you back. First of all, 90% of people don't pick up the phone. It's fascinating. I had a FX company, they had 160 cvs. Of the 160 that they sent that message to only 10 phoned. They're applying for a phone-based job, but they won't pick up the phone to actually apply for it.

So instantly you get rid of 90% of the losers and then you get two types of voice message. You get the long drawn out one. Hi, my name's Benjamin. I've worked at FX for 13 years. I've done this. I've done, they start vomiting all over you instantly. I know. Failure loser. This is someone that likes to talk.

This is someone that, again, the best ones, leave the briefest message. Hi, Benjamin. Saw your job. Advent. Interested in meeting with you. Here's my number. The [00:15:00] less you talk, the better you are at sales. Now, I know I've, there's an irony here. I've been talking for quite a bit, but the key to recruiting people is those that are short, sharp, to the point, because those are the sorts of people they're gonna be talking to.

And they're short sharpened to the point. And if you can't mirror people, if you can't change your personality in order to make someone comfortable with you, then you're gonna fail. So most salespeople will fail at this task. And of those 160, I still remember, only one was worth hiring. And you don't have to read a single cv.

Now that's winning. If I, in my book.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely love that. And some of the same plays outta my playbook that you're talking about there. That said though, so you've talked about, okay, hey, before you hire someone, let's take a test drive. Let's put them under pressure, and you're there, you're helping the company that they can do this. They don't know how to do this and getting all that there.

Improving Existing Sales Teams

Jeffrey Feldberg: What about with a company who's saying, okay, look, I already have an existing sales team. Benjamin, can you come on in and help them go from [00:16:00] good to great or maybe not so good to spectacular? What happens there? Let's roll back the curtain here. What's your secret sauce? What's part of your process here?

Benjamin Dennehy: There's no secret sauce. I have some magic dust. Liberally applied. It may work, but the biggest problem, and it goes back to what I said is 95 to 99% of people in sales are there by default, not design, which means deep down they don't wanna be there. But you meet anyone that's a lawyer or a surgeon, or any other profession, they've always wanted to be a lawyer or a surgeon.

You don't get up one day, say, you know what? I didn't go into surgery. It's not what you do. You are driven, you're passionate. Just like a professional sports person, I've always wanted to be a top runner, a top golfer. So they're driven. Most people in south deep down don't wanna be there.

They're still buying the lottery tickets in the hope that one day they can grab their boss by their cheesy yellow tie and say, you can kiss my and walk out. So the biggest challenge you have when you are thinking about improving your sales people is. [00:17:00] You gotta acknowledge that most don't want to get better.

Most are doing just enough to get by. And salespeople are very good at that. If you bring in just enough to be relevant, how do you fire them? And they do that. They know this. They're not stupid. So they do just enough to be relevant. So if you are gonna train anyone, I have a rule. I only work with companies that make their salespeople pay towards a training.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Love that.

Benjamin Dennehy: are not gonna invest, yeah. Simple rule. I say it to corporate, there's no point giving me any money. If the people in the room are there, they're hostages, they're there because you told them they need to get better. It's like taking a group of alcoholics to an AA meeting. Pointless. Unless I admit they got a problem and they wanna change, they won't. So most salespeople will do sales training 'cause it's a free day, hour in the office. You get a free lunch, you'll probably finish early and you don't have to prospect. Why would I say no to that? Yeah. So make them pay towards them.

Because everyone I've met in sales, every salesperson, not every, but most of them, desire to make more money. They all say they [00:18:00] wanna make more money. But very few have the commitment to make it work. Desiring commitment to very different things. And commitment is putting your own money skin in the game.

We are gonna invest in you, but we want you to invest in you. Oh, I can't really afford How can you not? Well, 'Cause you're broke. Why are you broke? You're in sales. You shouldn't be broke if you're in sales. So the key thing is finding people that want to get better. And the problem is corporate mandated sales training doesn't work.

You're just ticking that box. And again, most managers are failed salespeople. The sales managers are people, I say, failed. Failed, not as in they haven't hit certain targets, but they're not very good. The selling and management to two different skill sets. And often when you promote your best salesman to manager, you lose a good salesman to get a crap manager. Different skill sets. I'm a hunter. I'm not a farmer. I'm not an account manager. An account manager is different from a hunter. So people that farm, that's a different skill. [00:19:00] I'm a hunter. I hate relationships, but I'm very good at throwing spares and getting what I need. So you gotta figure all this out.

But don't invest any money in any sales people unless they're willing to invest in themselves. Seriously.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Love that. So we're getting them to put their money literally where their mouth is. They've got some skin in the game as you've been sharing, to go through part of your program. So what is your system? What am I going through? I show up. You shared a little bit of what's there, but let's go behind the scenes.

So what's the methodology? What are you trying to have us unlearn? And then what do you want us to learn coming in and coming out of it?

Understanding the Sales Matrix

Benjamin Dennehy: Okay, so I teach something called the sales Matrix. And I didn't create this, it's an observation. And if you are not in sales, you'll never understand what I'm about to say. 'cause people outside of sales do not get this. You have to be in sales. And what I teach people is just like the film, the Matrix we live in, there are two worlds operating.

There's a real world and then there's the generated computer system. Most sales people live in a generated computer system, and [00:20:00] what it is. They don't see it until it's exposed to them and they show people this. So the first thing is this. Everyone has been trained and programmed that it's perfectly acceptable not to tell the truth to salespeople.

We all do it. Someone says, what's your budget? You've got $150. What's your budget? Ah, you know, around, around a hundred. A hundred you lie? Yeah. Are you the decision maker? Yes. You lie. Actually, I've gotta run it past my wife first. Yeah. So we all lie we bend the truth. And so what I point out is that most prospects are telling you porkies from the very moment you walk in, we're very interested in your product.

This is and you listen to their language. We are curious, we're interested. It's something we've been figure all non-committal salespeople only hear. Yes. So the first thing a prospect is gonna do is not tell you the truth. They're economical with the truth. The second thing they're gonna do is this.

As a prospect, I want what you have. There's just one caveat. I don't wanna pay for it if I don't have to. So I've got a marketing problem. So what do I do? I ask four different advertising [00:21:00] agencies to come and meet me and have a chat with 'em about how they think they could help me. And I'm hoping that between all of them, I won't need any of them because they'll all tell me, they'll all give me little to win my favor.

They'll drop and well, if I were you, I'd probably wanna do something like this, or maybe the, and between four of you, you won't give me probably what I need, or you gimme enough to say. Heck, I can recruit someone internally for this. You've told me what I'm looking for. Now. I know I'll go up. So the second thing I wanna do is steal from you, as I call it.

The first thing is deceive you. Yes, very interested. Come and see me. I'm the decision maker. The next thing is pump you for information. Every human being has been programmed to answer a question from the moment they were born. It's a programming. You stop someone on the street right now and you say, what's the time?

They'll actually give you an answer. They won't say, why are you asking? They will give you an answer. So we've been programmed, prospects know this. I know this. If somebody asks me a question, I know they're fishing. what they do is they invite you in. What is the number one thing people love talking about themselves?

So what do people themselves [00:22:00] love talking about themselves and their product? So what's a prospect? All I've gotta do is invite you in. Give you some strokes. Tell you how much I like what I've seen online and how much I love you and you'll vomit all over me. Would you do this? Would you do that?

How would you do this? What would you recommend if you were us? How long have you done this? Where have you been? Who have you worked for? Vomit. Vomit. You're answering. Because you are programmed that if you give the right answer, people will like you. And if they like you, they're probably likely to buy from you.

So I deceive you to get in. Then I pump you for information the moment I know you're about to close me, which always happens. So I always say this to salespeople. A meeting goes like this. You get invited in, you have a little chitchat, you have a little q and a, you have some discovery. You get to the point where you've gotta get some commitment outta them, don't you?

Everyone knows it's coming. It's about 40 minutes into the meeting, it's around there. And the moment you try and get a commitment, what do they do? They lie to you again, but in the form of a mis mystery, this is where stalls objections and higher authority pop up. Oh, Benjamin, absolutely [00:23:00] love it. If this decision were up to me, I'd buy today.

Look, budgets aren't gonna be set until next month, but I've really appreciated you. So they give you these reasons why at this moment in time they cannot move forwards and then they do something else. This is the bit that I hate the most. They turn to you and say, look, you couldn't send us something you couldn't.

I call it, you'll call it a quote, a proposal, whatever you call it. I call it you couldn't document your stupidity, could you? You couldn't put on paper everything you've spent the last 40 minutes telling us with time on. 'cause what we wanna do is we need to look at that. So you send that doc you get back to the office, you know how it goes.

You go back to the office and your boss says, how's Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah, it was good. Why was it good? First they liked us. They're very enthusiastic. They asked all the right questions. They seem very keen. So what are you doing now? I've just gotta put together a quick overview for them. Okay. What happens next?

They said call them next week when [00:24:00] Well then actually say what time they, they just said call them next week. So what do you do now? Say you had this interview, this meeting on a Thursday, you send the document over Thursday afternoon it gets to Friday and you think, no, it's too soon to chase him.

'cause if I chase him, I look desperate. So you get to Monday and you do that usual. Just making sure you got the document, email, the, for some reason email didn't work. Yeah. now you're going through this process of looking user. They don't respond. So then Tuesday comes round, you've heard nothing.

So you're thinking, do I call them? What do I call them? Gets to Wednesday. Think, you know what I'll call them just to make sure they got it, yeah. Because I was positive they were gonna buy, they were so keen they said everything right in the meeting. So then you phone them up. Can't get through to them.

They're unavailable. So you try again on Thursday? Same thing. Get to Friday. I've tried calling really early or I'm gonna do what? I'll change my phone number. Anyone listening to this? Have you ever phoned from a different phone number? So the [00:25:00] person, yeah. So if you, they've reduced you to what I call Veon.

And so what they're doing is they're now hiding from you. So they deceive, they steal, they mislead, and then they hide. But they've got what they wanted from you, that document. That thing that you thought was so important that you didn't think was relevant, they've got it. And so now you are reduced to ver changing your phone number, calling at different times, and then finally hit through to them after two weeks of calling.

And you hear that voice ah, no. Straight away they know who ah oh yeah. Ah. Look I have that chance to look at it. I've been on holiday for the last couple of weeks. We've decided that we're, we are gonna do this internally. The decision's be. All these ex and you, oh no, it's fine. I understand now you're thanking them for wasting your time and using you.

Is there anything else I can do for you? It's six months later, they phone up and you go through the same process, and this is, you are stuck in this paradigm, and it's not until you show people this every CEO I've showed this to, they go, oh my God, you've just literally [00:26:00] described our sales process. I said, yes.

You show up, you throw up and you hope.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yes, sounds sadly all too familiar.

Taking Control of the Sales Process

Benjamin Dennehy: And so who's in control of this process?

The prospect. And this is the fundamental problem. Salespeople do not believe they're in control. They're of the opinion. 'cause again, this goes back to programming. As a kid, the man with the gold makes the wrong, the person with the money is in charge.

No money is a concept. If you won't take someone's money, it's useless. If I had the cure for cancer and Bill Gates had cancer and he said, I'll give you a billion dollars. I said, no, I hate you. I'll give you two. I no two. I'll give you no, no. I hope you die. I don't care. His money is useless. And so salespeople, forget this.

A prospect needs you. You don't need them. Now they have choice. I'll give them that they have choice of where they spend their money, but that's it. They still gotta fix their problem, and ultimately they want the right solution. You have to [00:27:00] make them believe you're the right solution. So it is a mindset thing.

You do not need them. They need you. And if someone can't convince you, they wanna fix their problem, you're never gonna sell to them anyway.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Okay, so let's flip the script. Let's now imagine we've gone through one of your bootcamps, we've gone through some of your coaching. I've mastered your system. I've got the mindset in check. I know you're all about Socratic questioning and all the other strategies that go along with that. Why don't you walk us through someone who has now really reimagined what they should have been doing from the first day.

They're now doing that. Now they've been working with you. Walk us through that same scenario of how this is now different. 

The Problem with Free Consulting

Jeffrey Feldberg: What does it look like? What does it sound like?

Benjamin Dennehy: Well, First thing is, is they start getting paid for stuff they're doing for free. Fundamentally important salespeople are free consultants. The entire matrix is designed to turn you into a free consultant. Come in, tell me about you. Put it on paper, send it to me, and I'll get back to you. It's free consulting, that's all it is.

So the first thing I teach people is stop free consulting. You've gotta get outta this mindset so you make [00:28:00] it clear. 

Selling Proposals and Quotes

Benjamin Dennehy: So every client I work with learns how to sell their proposal or quote. Every time we start, they say it's not possible, can't do it until they learn how to do it. Then they sell their first one and then they phobia say, oh my God, I can't believe it.

I just sold one. How much you, again, the price is irrelevant. they've ranged from 500 pounds through to 5,000 pounds. 

The Cost of Free Demos

Benjamin Dennehy: I was working with a tech company 20 years and on their website, like most tech company book, a free demo book, A free demo, the classic. Hook. I said, how many demos do you do a month?

He goes, we must do about 20 to 25. I go, how long do they take? Usually 45 minutes to an hour. So then you do the math. How much do you pay your people? Of those 20 to 25 demos that you do a month, how many actually end up buying maybe one or two. So when you look at the math, so what on, so you do 25, 45 minutes at $82 an hour every month. How much money are you spending talking to people that don't buy and you go that's the way it is. No, it's not the way it is. Why don't you [00:29:00] tell them We don't remove the free demo. Book a consult call and go on and say, look, we look, I don't know if we can help you. But the next step in our process is this.

If we agree, we can move together. You explain it, you make it sexy. You get them to say Yes, that's exactly what we want. By the way, we don't do that for free. That's gonna cost you 5,000 pounds. So knowing that the next step, if you want to move forwards, is gonna cost you five grand. Do you still wanna have this conversation?

The prospect is now under pressure. Good. ' cause if your solution is worth 200 K and you are saying it's gonna cost you 5K to figure out if it's worth spending the other 195 and you are struggling with the 5K, then that tells me you probably don't even have access to 200. So it's amazing. 

Charging for Consultations

Benjamin Dennehy: I charge people to talk to me so I don't talk for free.

So if you wanna have a meeting with me to discuss, if I should work with you, you've gotta book a call that costs you 197 pounds, which is like 450 US dollars. Every CEO that books says, I love the fact that you charge why? What [00:30:00] it proves to me you do what you teach. I say Yes, 'cause it eliminates 85% of tire kickers.

Do you know how many people just wanna meet with me and talk to me? Brain rate me, as I say, Nick, the information for free. Yeah. So I don't, so I teach people how to monetize every part of the process. Every meeting should end with a clear next step that is defined, but they're scared to do it. They learn how to plant their feet.

one of the toughest things I teach people is telling them the reasons they're not gonna work with you. So when I get in front of A CEO, I say, look, before we begin the meeting, shall I tell you the three reasons we're not gonna work together. Even if you want to. No one ever says nah, nah, nah, no, don't tell me.

They also, what are they? And you give them the three, one, I'm expensive. Two, this is gonna take a long time to get good at. And three, most of your guys, even if maybe all of them are gonna quit 'cause they don't wanna do it. So knowing that you still wanna have this chat, and then they'll argue with me that none of those apply to them. And if they say, I well, actually, yes. No, I, I can never see myself spending that amount of money. So you are telling me by the end of this meeting, if you don't believe I can help you, you would never consider well, [00:31:00] what? No, I may consider it. So what, why don't we agree this? If you don't, by the end of this meeting, can you tell me no?

Yes. Fine. I'm leaving here with a no or a next step. No thinking overs. You ask anyone a business, what does a thinking over mean? 99% of the time they all say the same thing. It means no. So why do salespeople take them? Because it's hope. And hope goes in the pipeline. It's 65%. Hope is something you can live on, not certainty.

The Importance of Measuring Close Rates

Benjamin Dennehy: So I teach people, if you follow my methodology, you learn to sell things you were doing for free. Your close rate. Goes up. Most people don't measure their close rate. They only measure the close rate at final meeting. So we had six final meetings and we closed three of them. We got a 50. No, you don't have a 50% close.

How many sales conversations did you start to get to that six? 50. So of those 50, only six got to the final bit. So you don't have a 50% close rate. What is six outta 50 as a percentage? Oh yeah. It's about 10%. [00:32:00] 10%. That means 90% of your sales activity leads to No, and yet you come to me and say, we need to be in front of more people. You don't need to be in front of more people. You just crap when you're in front of them. 

Taking Control in Sales

Benjamin Dennehy: This is a real game changer it's incredibly uncomfortable to do. Taking control in the sale is the hardest thing for salespeople to do. 'cause deep down the man with the money is in charge. And when you point this out to them, do you know why it's so true?

Because you ask them when you are out buying stuff, do you think you're in control? Yeah. Well, Yeah. It's my money. Exactly. See if you think and act like your prospect. Two prospects talking to each other, two buyers talking. Never gonna sell anything. That's why I have the hat on underneath. This hat's off.

I'm a buyer. Put this on. I'm a salesman. The problem is most people just stick the hat on underneath. Still a buyer. Two buyers talking go nowhere. A salesman versus a prospect. Yeah. So learning how to monetize, how to be in control. Plant your feet. It's sounds easy, [00:33:00] but it's incredibly difficult to do.

Incredibly difficult 'cause most people, like they say, deep down, don't wanna be here anyway. So why would I really put myself out there?

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely. Benjamin, as you're talking about that, I'm sure most people in Deep Wealth Nation going way back to the very beginning of what you're sharing with that scenario, Hey, take down the free demo, the free consult, take it down off the website. Most are saying, Hey, wait a minute, if I do that. I'm gonna lose all my sales.

I'm gonna go outta business. I'm not gonna be doing any revenue. No bookings, no sales. So what would you say of why that thinking is wrong and why you're saying it's really the way to go? I.

Benjamin Dennehy: Look at the data. Simply look at the data. How many demos do you do that go nowhere? How much time and money are you spending? How much time are your people spent chasing people that said they were interested but are buying when you do that? You realize how bad it is, and then you look at why are people buying from us?

And then what you discover COVID was the best thing to happen to the world of sales. And I'll tell you this because I spoke with [00:34:00] so many MDs and CEOs during this period, and they said, you know what I've loved about COVID? We managed to half our sales force, but we're still bringing in the same revenue.

The Reality of Sales and Order Taking

Benjamin Dennehy: Most salespeople are order takers. The brand has already done the job. The product sells itself. It's like real estate agents I love. You have these shows where they do selling Sunset and they're going on about how they sell million. They don't sell a million dollar. Nobody sells a million dollar property.

Someone buys it. The skill is getting the listing. And all the beautiful women, they don't get the listings. It's always up to some guy that runs the agency. They're just there as window dressing to make the place look better. So the skill is. you've gotta realize that salespeople most of the time don't sell.

And when they don't sell, they blame every other external factor. It's the economy, it's Trump's tariffs, it's Brexit, it's the financial crisis. Yeah. Okay, so the economy shrunk by 2%. That still means there's still $12 trillion out there sloshing around, and you are moaning about the 1 trillion that's not there.

That's preventing you. No. Good salespeople are in the [00:35:00] good and the bad times. Still selling. Order takers are the only people that lose out during tough times. Anyone can take an order. In fact, yeah, that's the whole goal of going into business, to get to the point where people just give you money without you doing anything.

Salespeople, most of them glorified order takers. Waste of time. Honestly. Seriously, you could fire your lowest performing five people and still generate the same amount of money.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Okay, so Benjamin, really, if I take a step back, what I'm hearing you say is we're really ignoring the data. It's not, Hey, I had six presentations. Of the six presentations. I close three of them. I have a 50% closing rate. Back to your example, go back to the data to see what it's really costing you. And that's taking off the blindfold right now where the emperor with no close on.

we're looking at the data. Okay. Hey, actually it wasn't six, maybe it was a hundred. It took me a hundred interactions to get to those six

Benjamin Dennehy: Yeah.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And then to the three. So actually I have a 3% closing.

Benjamin Dennehy: It's shocking and, and this is it. The number of times I have heard, [00:36:00] when I did prospecting for a living. I'd hear the same thing. We're great when we're in front of people. We just struggle to get in front of you. Then you go through the math and we're currently meeting about six people a month, but not a buying, so you don't need to get in front of more people. You need to close once you're getting in front of. And most people always think they're good at selling, but they just suck at prospecting. Actually, it's the other way around. It's not hard to get in front of somebody. The skill is when you're in front of someone, getting them to discover they need what you have.

They don't do that. 'cause they show up, they throw up and they hope it's a numbers game. And that's where salespeople came up with these phrases. It's a numbers game. You gotta be in it to win it. All these phrases, and I say, who created those phrases, do you think? And then everyone says. Salespeople? No. Who else?

Then it must be prospects. No, they're all lottery jingles gotta be in it to win it. It's a numbers game. The lottery created those phrases because it's a lottery. Most salespeople are out there. I say they like washing machines. [00:37:00] They work really hard. They go around in circles, but they achieve nothing.

Yeah. So no

Jeffrey Feldberg: and so with that said, there's a school of thought, which I don't agree with by the way, and don't get me on my social media at soapbox because I think it's the worst thing ever for sales. 

The Value of Prospecting

Jeffrey Feldberg: But some people are saying, Hey, listen, in today's day and age, it's just impossible to get people on the phone.

So prospecting is dead. I've gotta go out there, I've gotta get a big community. I've gotta spend a gazillion dollars on different ads and all these special words, and getting a following and likes and everything else. Give us the real deal. So when it comes to cold calling, getting in front of not just anybody, but to your point earlier, and I'm right with you there, hey, forget the directors.

Go right to the top, go to the CEO, get in front of them. You're saying what a lot of people are saying. Yeah, Benjamin, maybe 20 years ago, but not in this day and age. Prospecting's dead

Benjamin Dennehy: Oh, really? Everyone's not walking around with their own personal phone device, and you are telling me it's harder to get a hold of people. This is what I point out and I point this out to people. Do you know why CEOs and [00:38:00] presidents of companies are so hard to talk to? It's not 'cause they're busy. It's not 'cause they're important.

It's not 'cause they're off doing better things. It's because everybody knows that if a good salesman talks to a decision maker, they buy stuff. The only reason you're not allowed to talk to them isn't because you're an annoyance. Just because they're scared that if a good person gets through, 'cause remember a CEO can go around any procurement policy.

A CEO, if he wants something, says we're gonna do it. They don't want you to talk to 'em. So that's why you go to the top. They're hardest to get through to, but if you get through them, every managing director or CEO I've talked to, I've said, do hate sales calls. The answer no, I actually, I don't hate sales calls.

What do you hate? I hate salespeople. There's a difference because most people are on companies appreciate and understand selling is tough and it's a skill, and if you can get past my gatekeeper and get me on the phone and you say something that doesn't bore me to death. I'll listen to you and if you actually have something that could actually make me more profitable or fix a problem that I have, then I will listen to you.

But don't [00:39:00] phone me up and vomit on me about how wonderful and brilliant I don't care. What can you do for me if you can't express what you do in terms that I can understand that relate to me? I'm gonna ignore you. But if you say something, you know what? Actually, yes, I do recognize that we do.

Occasionally struggle with it. So you are telling me you can fix that. I dunno yet. Sir, we've only spoken for a couple of minutes, but let's pretend we could fix it and you genuinely believed our solution would work. What would you do? Yeah, I'd be interested in talking further. Very simple. So go to the top.

Prospecting works. And there's another reason and I, this is why I love prospecting. How are you going to communicate with a human being in face to face if you can't even do it over the phone? This is what a lot of people don't realize, selling over the phone, not selling. Getting an appointment is a skill, particularly when you can't see someone. You can't even read their facial expressions or body language.

You've gotta go on their tone. How they ask your question, That is a skill. You are not gonna go to a meeting and be opposite each other. Sending text messages doesn't work. [00:40:00] So if you can't do this on the phone, you're gonna struggle when you get in person. And the other thing I'd say is this telephone prospecting is essentially free.

Why are you not using a free resource? There are hundreds of thousands of people out there that you could actually talk to and practice on. Why would you not take advantage of that resource? Why would you save your best energy for when you get in front of someone? It's like a goal for saying, I don't practice, I just wait till I get to the rider's cup and then my glory code.

No, no, no, no, no, No. You need to be doing all the practice in between rider's cups. If you are not talking to people every day, constantly learning how to engage them, answer their questions, challenge. I don't believe in objections. I'll point that out. There's no such thing as an objection A. A prospect only does one or two things and they ask a question or they make a statement.

None of those are objections prospects, salespeople hear it as an objection. They end up justifying and defeating no such thing. So if you don't understand that, if you can't do that on the phone, there's no way in hell you're gonna do it face to face where there's real pressure. [00:41:00] You're sitting in their office, in their boardroom, on their chair, eating their biscuits and drinking their tea, and then you are gonna tell me you are gonna take control.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely ever for someone in Deep Health Nation who's saying, okay, yeah, Benjamin fine, maybe for a smaller company, but I'm talking to a Fortune 500 or Fortune a hundred or Fortune 10, there's no way these strategies are gonna work. They're gonna laugh me off or hang up. What would you say to that person in Deep Health Nation who's thinking that?

Benjamin Dennehy: Share a true story with you. I've worked with the biggest, the second biggest and the third biggest FX trading companies in the United Kingdom. Billion dollars fx. It's a license to print money. And these guys, it's a Wolf of Wall Street. I used to call them the Huskies of Hounds Low. 'cause they're not wolves.

They're just people that dress smart and go to the gym a lot. Yeah that's what these people are like, traders. Yeah. So they've got big egos and they've got this. And I remember the first day of training with this particular. FX company and I was explaining what I've just explained to you and showing them various things and there's this guy puts up a table, he goes, I have a question for you.

He goes, look, Benjamin, [00:42:00] I'm gonna be honest with you. I understand what you're saying and I get it, but it wouldn't work in our world. I said what do you mean? He goes, we deal with serious people, CEOs, we are talking about, hundreds of thousands, millions, sometimes billions of money being traded. I go, okay, if I can prove to you that you are wrong, will you do what I teach? And he said, yes. I said, are you sure? 'cause you are not really stupid in the next minute. He said no. If you can prove I'm wrong, then I'll do it. I said, okay. I said, this is it. I'm gonna do it with one simple question. I said, how did I get here? He goes, what do you mean? I said well, how did I get here? I'm standing in front of you. Your boss has given me 50,000 pounds. Is your boss not exactly the sort of man you sell to? Yeah. So how is it that a guy with a Red Hat braces who forgets to take a pen to a meeting, who told your boss twice that he wasn't gonna work with him?

How am I here? ' cause I did everything that I'm telling you to do right now, so don't do it. I said, I don't care if you do this or not. this is, you do it. You don't do it. But I'll tell you what, [00:43:00] I'm here because I did everything. And if the CEO said it's true, he refused to work with us at first.

'cause he wanted me to give a discount. I said, no. It's funny, the richer they are, the more they want.

Jeffrey Feldberg: There you go. Deep Wealth Nations straight from the trenches. 

Investing in Sales Training

Jeffrey Feldberg: And let me ask you this, we have just covered, as the saying goes, the tip of the iceberg, is there a question, even a topic or theme that's important to you that we haven't yet covered?

Benjamin Dennehy: No, I would reiterate this. If you're gonna invest any money in any form of training for your salespeople, make them pay towards it. Please,

because sales is a skill that you own. It doesn't belong to the company. What I teach can't be corporatized. You can't own it as a court. It belongs to the individual.

And if an individual doesn't wanna invest in themselves, it's like your boss saying, I'll go to the gym for you. No. So don't waste any money. Never spend any money on any sales training unless your salespeople are willing to pay towards it. You are literally wasting your money.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And Benjamin, you were so spot on. Many moons ago, [00:44:00] I would give people books back in the day or today, Kindles, Hey, you gotta read this book. And you know what? They never read it. Why? Because they didn't pay a penny. So now I say, Hey Sally, there's this incredible book, but I want you to go and buy it. Here it is.

Here's a link. Go get it. And now guess what? Maybe it's $5, maybe it's $15. Who knows what it is? The fairy fact that they reached into the wallet paid for it. Guess what? Do you think they're gonna crack the book open? Of course they are, because they now got some personal skin in the game. So

Benjamin Dennehy: They've got some skin in the game.

That's right. And most sales training though, and one of the reasons I stopped working with big corporates is simply because of this. They don't actually care how they make their money. They just wanna make it so they don't really want to have a process that's transparent and open and honest and ethical.

'cause at the end of the day, it's hit your target. We don't care how by hook or by crook, and so they get you in as a tick box exercise. But no one really wants to change yet. So I spend most of my time with individuals or small businesses where [00:45:00] we have to change. 'cause if we don't do things differently, we are in trouble.

Big corporates, I'll go in if they'll pay my fee, but I do it on one cabinet. I say it's gonna do nothing. I'm gonna change the thing. But if you still want me to come in to tick your box, fine, I'll do it. But be on that notice.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely some words to the wise. So that said, Benjamin, time to go into wrap up mode. It is a tradition here on the Deep Wealth Podcast. It's my privilege, my honor, where every guest I ask the same question and it's a fun one. Let me set this up for you. When you think of the movie Back to the Future.

You have that magical DeLorean car that will take you to any point in time. So Benjamin, the fun part is it's tomorrow morning. You look outside your window. Not only is the DeLorean car curbside, the door is open, waiting for you to hop on in what you do, and you're now gonna go to any point in your life.

Benjamin has a young child, a teenager, whatever point in time it would be. What are you telling your younger self in terms of life lessons or life wisdom or, Hey Benjamin, do this, but don't do that. What would it sound like?

No Emotional Attachment to Outcomes

Benjamin Dennehy: Oh. The biggest [00:46:00] lesson I have learned, which was never taught to me, is you gotta have no emotional attachment to the outcome. And that changed my life when I read, see, I trained as a lawyer. The lawyers have no attachment to the outcome. The whole point of being a professional lawyer, an attorney, is you go in and you def your client could be a child murderer, the worst of the worst.

You want them. To get the death penalty, but your job is to go in and bat for them and challenge it, and whatever happens at the end, if you win, you may be disappointed that you won. It could be a part of you that's disappointed. I wish I'd lost that one, but I did my job and I've known my, it's not my fault.

The jury let 'em go. The jury made that decision. It's not my fault or if they get convicted. So no emotional attachment. I started looking at cells like the law. I have a role to play. I have a product. I'm an advocate for that product or service. You either need it or you don't, but I don't care if you buy or don't buy.

That is the hardest thing for people in sales to get. I don't care if you don't buy. My job isn't to get you to buy. [00:47:00] My job is to figure out are you someone that could buy and if you are, will you buy? It's not to get everyone I meet to buy from me. That is why most salespeople sell. They put so much pressure on themselves.

Everyone they talk to has gotta meet with them. They're prospecting everyone so they spend their whole lives. How do you deal with this objection. How do you deal with that? You spend so much energy trying to convince someone that said no, that they should be saying yes. That when someone finally sees they're interest and you fuck it up because you've ended up vomiting a lot of them.

'cause you've never practiced. What do you do when someone says yes? So the biggest thing I've learned in sales, there's no attachment to the, I don't care if someone buys from me. What I care about is how I get there. If I get there, just like with the jury, if we get to the end of the trial and you convict, I'll look at what I did.

Did I do anything wrong? No. Was I niggling? No. Did I put forward the best defense? No. Fine. That's the way it is. The guy was guilty anyway, it was always gonna happen. It's not my fault, but if I look at, oh man I screwed up. There was a piece of evidence that I should have challenged. Had I challenged it, it would've been not admitted.

And had it not been admitted, [00:48:00] there's a good chance a jury might have acquitted. That's my fault. I'm negligent that I have to take the lesson from and learn from. So I'm interested in how I get a sale, not whether or not I get a sale. Whereas most salespeople gotta get a meeting, gotta get a sale, gotta get a deal.

No. Do the process. Yeah, you wanna look like Brad Pitt. You don't say, gotta be Brad Pitt. Gotta look like Brad. Go to the gym, change your diet. Change what you do. How you get there is more important than if you get there. And if you do the how right? The outcomes start to be unpredictable and consistent.

Jeffrey Feldberg: It is great advice, and as we say here at Deep Wealth, same kind of really approach or attitude, just a different way of saying it, who wins the negotiation is the one who cares the least. When you have no attachment to the outcome, you're more open. In fact, I take it a step further and say, you're actually showing up.

As the best version of yourself, you're not getting drawn down in the emotions. Oh, what about this? I said that I shouldn't have done that in this emotional term. Okay, I'm gonna show up and if it works out great, I'm gonna put my best foot forward. And if it doesn't, that's okay too. The best outcomes usually happen from there.

Benjamin Dennehy: And like I say, this is so [00:49:00] easy to say. It's so easy to say

no emotional attachment. It's the easiest line, very hard to do in the real world. And most people fail at this. They pay lip service to it,

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yes.

Benjamin Dennehy: but they don't actually act like it. So if you can't act like it, then all the lip service in the world means nothing.

And most salespeople come. This is why the top performers are the least concerned. How do you get like that by having a process where, you know, if I do my job right, whatever happens at the end, even if I don't like the outcomes probably. Right.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely. 

Final Thoughts and Wrap Up

Jeffrey Feldberg: And lemme ask you this, Benjamin, for the Nation, they have a question. They wanna book a call with you. They wanna put their team through this. Maybe they want you to come on board and help them hire whatever the case may be. Where's the best place online to reach you?

Benjamin Dennehy: Surprisingly, if you Google UK's most hated sales trader, I actually pop up quite easily. So finding me is not hard, but obviously LinkedIn. If you go to my name Benjamin, here at LinkedIn, I have an online platform where I do sell courses and bootcamps. That's ww sales matrix [00:50:00] courses.com. I have a YouTube channel.

Again, just type in UK's most hated and you'll see videos of me making calls and offering tips and advice. But I've got a deal for your listener if they. Send me a message via LinkedIn or Instagram. If they send me a direct message. If they just type Deep Wealth, if they just type Deep Wealth in the message, I will send them a link and they can have access to two courses for free.

They're short courses. Why your prospecting files and how to bulldoze your way through objections, and they're just a short mini courses. Normally I charge 197 bucks, but if your viewer, your listener, I should say, if they just send me a message with Deep Wealth, I'll send them a link and they can access those at no charge.

And then maybe we'll do more together. But yeah, I'm easy to find. Honestly, it's not hard to find someone that look sounds and dresses like me.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely love it in deep fishing. You've gotta see him. He's got this red hat on, like a certain political leader out there. We won't name any names. Make Salesman great again. Make Salesman great again. [00:51:00] I love that. Love how you're doing that. Just to bring some attention to yourself. That said, Benjamin, it's official.

This is a wrap. Congratulations. And as we love to say here, Deep Wealth may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain healthy and safe in Deep Wealth Nation. Go to the show notes. It's all there. It's a point and click. You don't have to remember a thing, how to reach out to 'em, how to send that direct message, how to go to the websites.

It's all there for you. But Benjamin, again heartfelt. Thank you so much.

Benjamin Dennehy: Thank you. It's been an honor and a privilege, and likewise, I wish you the same success, happiness, and um, peace. Ultimately.

Jeffrey Feldberg: So there you have it, Deep Wealth Nation. 

What did you think? 

So with all that said and as we wrap it up, I have another question for you.

Actually, it's more of a personal favor. 

Did you find this episode helpful? 

Have you found other episodes of the Deep Wealth Podcast empowering and a game changer for your journey? 

And if you said yes, and I really hope you did, I have a small but really meaningful way that you can actually help us out and keep these episodes coming to you.

Are you ready for it? 

The dramatic pause. I'll just wait a moment. Drumroll, please. [00:52:00] Subscribe. Please subscribe to the Deep Wealth podcast on your favorite podcast channel. When you subscribe to the Deep Wealth Podcast, you're saving yourself time. Every episode automatically comes to you, and I want you to know that we meticulously craft Every one of our episodes to have impactful strategies, stories, expert insights that are designed to help you grow your profits, increase the value of your business, and yes, even optimize your post exit life and your life right now, whatever you want that to look like.

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So all that said. Thank you so much for listening. And remember your wealth isn't just about the money in the bank. It's about the depth of your journey and the impact that you're creating. So let's continue this journey together. And from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for listening to this episode.

And as we love to say here at Deep Wealth, may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain healthy and safe. 

Thank you so much. 

God bless.