454 Jennifer Gardner

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:00:00] Jennifer Gardner is a Los Angeles based trial lawyer and persuasive communications educator. She specializes in strategic, empathic, and persuasive communication with a focus on high performers in various settings.

When she is not lawyering, she educates high performing leaders on how to grow their executive presence and confidence using persuasive communication strategies through her program, The Art of Influence, and The Power Lab, and for various continuing legal education providers. She also consults with lawyers on strategic messaging for their cases and helps them with their courtroom presence.

 Jennifer's career spans entertainment litigation, serious criminal cases, and business and real estate disputes. She is trained at the Trial Lawyers College, the Gerry Spence Method, and the Wharton School. And before we start this episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Deep Wealth and the 90 Day Deep Wealth Mastery Program. Here's Jane, a graduate who says, and I quote, the Deep Wealth Mastery Program prevented me from making what would have been one of the [00:01:00] biggest mistakes of my career. I almost signed on the dotted line with an unsolicited offer that I now realized would have shortchanged my hard work and my future had I accepted that offer. Deep Wealth Mastery has tilted the playing field to my advantage.

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Deep Wealth Nation, welcome to another episode of the Deep Wealth Podcast. Deep Wealth Nation, I have a question for you. As you know, on this podcast, it's all about the narrative. You can have the best solution, but if you don't have the narrative, you're probably not going to win, sadly, at the end of the day.

And even with the best narrative, how are you as a storyteller? Are you persuasive? Do you know what to do, what not to do? We're going to be talking a whole lot about that, but so much more with our guests. You heard it in the official introduction, we have a trial lawyer, we have a Thought Leader. We have an entrepreneur.

We have just an all around incredibly smart individual. So Jennifer, welcome to the Deep Wealth Podcast. An absolute pleasure to have you with us. There's always a story behind the story, Jennifer. So what's your story? What got you from where you were to where you are today?

Jennifer Gardner: Hi, Jeffrey. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be having this conversation with you today. Where do I begin? Like, That's the big story. [00:05:00] Where do I begin? Well, You could say that, I went through the school of hard knocks. I really had a bad experience as a young attorney working in various law firms when I was just starting out after I graduated and so I decided to strike out on my own, but the problem was is that I didn't have any savings to rely on.

I didn't have a trust fund. I didn't have anyone supporting me. I didn't have any clients. I didn't have anything except my wits and a lot of courage, right? So I struck out on my own and I started my own practice and I wanted to be a trial lawyer and I showed up, suited and showed up every day and declared to the world, I am a business litigator and I am a trial lawyer.

But. Then I realized, I started getting cases. I got the cases, I like to say, that no sane lawyer would take because people were, all the established lawyers were like, oh God, I'm not touching this one, but send it to her, right? So they sent it to me and I would take it because I had nothing [00:06:00] better to do.

And if I saw an opportunity to help somebody and to actually pay my bills, I was all for it. So I took these cases and my clients were kind of crazy. They all wanted to go to trial, so I knew that going in, so it was great. I'm thinking this is what I've been preparing to do for so many years.

I get to go to trial, but the problem was I had no idea how to try a case. So I found myself in courtrooms trying to figure this out, and I You know, I had some really bad experiences in law firms. So let's go back in time. This was the late 1980s. And so even though we had women going through law school, they weren't staying in the legal profession.

And that's because the legal profession, by and large was really hostile to women. And I felt a lot of that. Hostility. So I didn't really get the training or the mentorship that I wanted. And in fact, I got messaging you're, you really don't know what you're doing. You give bullshit and off the cuff opinions.

And [00:07:00] you're never going to amount to anything unless you work 12 and 15 hour days. And that was just not for me. But another comment that came back to me that was really horrible snide remark. was a senior partner in one law firm who I didn't get along with at all, made a comment to someone that she's no legal genius.

And when I heard that, I was really hurt. But I had no choice, I had this education, I needed to earn a living, and here I was with clients and cases coming to me, and I felt the weight of that responsibility. I really was motivated to do a good job. So I said, the hell with it. I have to just kind of do it.

Suppress those negative messages that I got about my skills as a young lawyer and forge ahead. And so I did the only thing that I knew how to do, which was understand on a very human level what the dynamics were between the parties, what went wrong in their situation, and explain [00:08:00] that in a very passionate way.

I was reaching into the emotional dynamics and the emotional content of the dispute and pulling that out, teasing that out and massaging the facts in such a way that I was able to tell a really Compelling story, even for some very morally complex clients, let's just put it that way. And to my surprise, and everybody else's surprise, I won case after case.

we're talking unanimous jury verdicts for fraud with huge damage awards in really sketchy cases. These were the kinds of cases, Jeffrey, where I would walk into court and the judge would roll my eyes and I'd say, well, my client wants a trial and they'd think, okay. So this is not exactly what the taxpayers of the state of California had in mind when they're like writing huge checks for the justice system.

But you know what, that's exactly what we have in mind because alternative? That's our alternative. If we're not in courtrooms slugging it out in courtrooms in a civil way, [00:09:00] we're slugging it out on the streets. We're killing each other with knives and guns and that's my origin story.

I figured after a while, I'm doing something right. I liked helping people. I loved running a business. I loved having the flexibility of having my own business and working for myself. And I just kept going. And here I am 30 some odd years later.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely incredible with that story, but I've got to ask you, so you took on these cases, but you had no idea really what to do at that point. So you're great at getting the business and then in the early days executing on that. So for most people. That would have been, okay, I'm not gonna pass go, that's it, I'm just gonna give up on the case, I got myself into something I cannot handle.

But that didn't happen for you. So what was going on in the very early days for the first few cases where you're really flying by the seat of your pants, as they say?

Jennifer Gardner: Well, first, let me just say I was absolutely terrified and the stress level was so intense, but I did it without any pharmaceutical help. I did it without [00:10:00] any drugs or alcohol. I mean, I really just gutted through, I had a lot of grit and that's really what it takes. don't feel like I had the greatest support network because I was basically on my own as a lawyer.

Later, people joined me, but at first it was just me. And when I tell you terrified, scared to death, I mean, I've had some pretty scary experiences in my life, but these were amongst them. And I was just in a courtroom, right? Not knowing sometimes what to say, except to ask for continuance. So I could call somebody and say, what do I do now?

Literally, that's how it went at first, but I pushed through and I showed up by being myself and not being afraid to show that I felt afraid. I owned my mistakes and that worked for me. That works, it still works for me, although thank goodness I make fewer mistakes and I'm a lot more confident, but I think that, the fact that I prepared and I worked hard and I cared about my clients and I showed up as a real [00:11:00] human, I wasn't putting on pretensions, like I wasn't pretending to be some great legal genius, because as far as I was concerned, someone that I respected told me that I wasn't, so that wasn't why I was there, what I was doing, I doubled down on what somebody told me was my weakness and it turned into my strength.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Wow. So much there to go into. But let me ask you this, because you're focusing on, and I love how you phrase this, the art of influence. And for so many people, they don't really get that, particularly entrepreneurs. They can have, as I alluded to earlier When I was introducing you, someone can have the absolute best solution out there.

But if they can't communicate that, if they don't have that art of influence, it's just not going to happen. So let me ask you this. When it comes to the art of influence, most people, and I know, you're going to say, well, Jeffrey, It's not most people. Everyone has their own journey. It's very specific. But generally speaking, back of the envelope, where are we typically getting it wrong when it comes to the art of influence?

Jennifer Gardner: I love this question. I think that where people are getting it wrong is [00:12:00] that they think that if they are communicating with stakeholders, people that they want buy in from, potential clients, people that they want to raise money from, people that they want to donate for them or vote for them or decide for them, that they have to show that they have incredible technical knowledge.

You certainly need that. You need to have technical knowledge, but that just communicating from the technical Ends 1 Standpoint of whatever problem you're trying to solve is not going to carry the day. You need both. You need the technical and you need the emotional.

Jeffrey Feldberg: wow, there's a lot there, and I know this is your specialty, where you'll take not only lawyers, but you're working with entrepreneurs, with leaders, with most people, to take them from here, which is probably not a great place, to there, where someone like yourself, you've really been under the microscope, you're in the courtroom, where there's a lot on the line, you can't mess up, you've [00:13:00] got to get your communication figured out, you've got to be having that art of influence, you've got to get all that going, so In what you're doing, in your coaching, in your program, in your online program that you're sharing with the world, putting it out there.

Walk me through that. I'm showing up. How long is it going to take? What am I learning? What's a little bit of your secret sauce?

Jennifer Gardner: Okay. Happy to share. First of all, it's an ongoing process. It's not like you turn on a switch and say, I'm going to be influential today. And I learned X, Y, and Z today. And that's it. I'm now magically influential. These ideas take practice. And what they also take is. Self introspection, and working on yourself, and seeing where your growth edges are, and in order to see and feel where those are, you have to push yourself, and every situation is different.

It's not like you go to the gym, you do ten reps with a heavy set of biceps, and that's it, you're done, your arms are perfect, it's the same thing. It requires work, it [00:14:00] requires self knowledge, which I think is a something that we're working on our entire lives, and then it takes digging into understanding what the tools are, what the skills are, what is the psychology behind influential, and then you can find it.

a tool or a tip that works for you, practice using it, start employing it and seeing results. And then if you're like me, it might ignite a desire to learn more and to try more things and to try the same things that are working for you repeatedly so that you actually get some mastery over it and it becomes second nature.

I

Jeffrey Feldberg: Okay. And so as you're walking us through that, we talked about what doesn't work. And at the same time, what does work? So if I want to have that art of influence, I want people to listen, and if they're coming in closed minded, perhaps the opportunity to at least have them re evaluate, or better yet come to [00:15:00] my way of how I'm saying things.

So what should I be doing? What would be some of the Perhaps 20 percent of the things that I can do that can get me 80 percent of the results, a good old 80 20 rule or Pareto's Law.

Jennifer Gardner: love that 80 20 rule. I think about that all the time. I would say. To answer your question that people need to think in terms of their emotions as being a superpower and to focus on the right side of their brain when they are communicating and not just their own right side, but the right side of the listener.

So if this is a process, Jeffrey, this is something that really it's a skill and it sounds like. Natural, and it is natural, but at the same time, to really focus on that and to communicate from that place. It takes some intention and some focus and some effort and some energy. It isn't easy to always [00:16:00] be focused on right brain communication.

I would say that the biggest skill that people need is emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence can be learned and it's, I believe, responsible for 85 percent of my success. And it's what every successful person and leadership leader, I meant to say, has it's one thing that they have in spades.

They understand who they're communicating to they understand what the emotions the fears The desires, the aspirations, the insecurities of the people that they're speaking to, and this is all living in the right side of the brain. And they're speaking into that. That is so important. I can't underestimate it.

Yes, of course you need everything else. You need a product that people want. You need to deliver a good service. You need to be able to explain these things from an informational standpoint, but you really need to focus on your [00:17:00] emotional intelligence and the quality of your right brain intuiting and communication skills.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so for a logical person, Jennifer, I would imagine they're saying, I don't think I can do that. I don't think that's within me. I'm just logical. It's A, then B, then C, and down the list we go, and yeah, this emotional intelligence, I've heard about that, but it doesn't really fit me. So what would you say to the more logical person who doesn't necessarily line up with what you're sharing right now?

Yeah.

Jennifer Gardner: Well, I would tell them that they're human beings. They have two sides of their brain, and they need to slow down and get in touch with themselves and their own emotions, and I understand that's difficult and confronting for a lot of people for many reasons, right? The fact of the matter is, we all feel.

We all feel. Feel, we feel happy, we feel sad, we feel afraid, for example, right? And I really do believe that in order to be great at communicating and to be a great [00:18:00] leader, you need to slow down and first get in touch with you. And then you need to be able to know. How to access that in moments where you are maybe in a high stakes communication, or you're dealing with conflict or criticism, or you're suddenly triggered by something someone says, or something that you pick up on in a meeting, intuitively or unconsciously, there's a lot of communication that happens on an unconscious level that some people really feel, and it can really disable them in the moment.

And so I like to tell people that they've got to learn how to slow down and come back to who they are and get grounded in themselves. And it sounds a little woo, but you actually can practice doing that. And that really is the key to keeping your wits about you when you're communicating and the stakes are high.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Okay. And speaking of the stakes being high, I want to go back to being a lawyer. Was there a particular moment, Jennifer, that the art of [00:19:00] persuasion in a law case, just a light bulb went off that you said, wow, there's really something here. And it's not just for me as a lawyer, other people should really have the benefit of knowing this.

Jennifer Gardner: Absolutely. I mean, there are many moments that led me up to this place where I'm at in my life right now, where I am, I have been engaged in serious study of these ideas and actually practicing them at the same time in my own professional laboratory, right? Yeah. I would say that the biggest moment for me was standing in front of a jury And realizing these are humans and I need to form a connection with them that is going to cause them to really feel my client's perspective in this dispute, this incident, whatever it is we're litigating.

Could be anything. Could be business. I used to do a lot of criminal defense. Some of my clients were all [00:20:00] accused of doing horrendous things. And the only way to humanize my client is to also humanize myself, to show up as a real person and to somehow be able to look a juror in the eye feel that kind of a connection.

Again, it requires that we slow down. And stop trying to act like we're the smartest person in the room. And when I had that experience of slowing down and connecting human to human in a jury trial in that moment, that's when the light bulb really went off for me

Jeffrey Feldberg: So, interesting how this one lightbulb moment really made the difference for you. And so walk us through now, you've had three decades of being able to do this. You've seen the results personally, you've been out there, not just with yourself, with your profession. Yes, other lawyers, but as I shared earlier, also with other leaders, other entrepreneurs.

So, from a business standpoint, is there a breakthrough moment, you're working [00:21:00] with a client, they came to you with a specific problem, they then learned these strategies, mastered them, put them to work, and called you back up, hey, Jennifer, you're not going to believe what happened, remember I was telling you about this and that, well, it turned out like this or that, anything that comes to mind for you,

Jennifer Gardner: all the time. All the time. I recently had one it was a really nasty neighbor dispute over a fence line. And here in Los Angeles where we have our Hollywood Hills, we have a lot of non conforming curvilinear lots and people have been doing things to mark their boundaries in very unusual ways for many years now.

And And then you, have many transfers of title of property and a lot of sales, a lot of purchases. And then, neighbors don't always get along and neighbors for their own reasons, often have difficulties communicating with each other. So I was called in recently to resolve, well, litigate or resolve one of these cases, and we ended up resolving it.

And the way that we [00:22:00] were able to resolve it was. I coached my client on how to approach these contentious, nasty, horrible neighbors. And eventually, that's exactly what happened. They with my help, helping my client behind the scenes, they were able to work things out myself. And he wrote me a lovely, very long email afterwards, telling me how he realized how just being able to have, to dispel the high emotion and find a common solution, Using a legal framework, certainly, because the law is going to apply, but approaching his neighbors and communicating with them in this way, in a very basic way, was instrumental in his ability to resolve this dispute.

And he wished He didn't have to like pay me all this money to get to this point, to be able to find that kind of a solution. But he was so glad that he did because he learned so much in the process that he was sure he'd be able to apply In many areas of his life.

Jeffrey Feldberg: whether it's in a criminal case or even [00:23:00] in a business case that hasn't crossed that criminal threshold, but just something's been offside. I'm just curious, Jennifer. Are there common things, common themes that you're seeing that ends up having somebody call you? And the reason I ask this, in my books, success, both in business and life, yes, it's knowing what I should be doing, but it's also knowing what I shouldn't be doing.

And I'm wondering, when I ask that question, I know, it's a very general question. Well, Jeffrey, it depends. You know, What industry are you in? What kind of business? What are you providing? What's going on with this or with that? I get all that. But again, very top level, very high level, generally speaking.

What would you share with us?

Jennifer Gardner: okay. I actually have an answer to that question, which I'm, yeah, I actually, I can't wait to give it. So let me just,

Jeffrey Feldberg: Okay. 

Jennifer Gardner: In every situation, one interlocutor, right? One of the parties has done this thing that they shouldn't do. They have lost the ability to self regulate. They [00:24:00] lost control of themselves. Almost in every case, that is what tips a jittery situation into an outright conflict. And it takes a long time, and energy, and money, bring them back from the brink.

Let's just put it that way, to bring them back from the brink. This is a really important concept that relates to emotional intelligence. Leaders and people who are exceptional communicators Know how to regulate their emotions. And this relates to what I was saying a few moments ago. If you don't take the time to tune in and get aware of your emotions so that you can control them, you're never going to be able to regulate them, right?

You have to have the awareness first. So a lot of people are in these situations of conflict because they lost control. They lost it. You know the phrase, they lost it. There's so much to be said for the wisdom of that phrase. They lost it.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Wow. Okay. So [00:25:00] what I'm hearing you say from a very high level, you get involved when people lose control of their emotions. That causes them to perhaps do things or say things that really crosses a line with the other party. How am I doing so far?

Jennifer Gardner: Perfect. And I would add, not only with the other party, but with themselves, they lose control of themselves. They lose the ability to be rational. They're no longer rational actors. They're reacting. And while emotions are really great way for us to, we need to be able to use them to our advantage, not to our detriment.

Let me just put it that way.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Okay. So interesting in terms of what you're sharing with that. And so now it really makes sense what you're sharing earlier. For me to not find myself in this situation or to have the upper hand, number one, I have to be aware of myself. Okay, what am I feeling? What am I going through right now? Oh, I feel some rage that's coming up.

Okay, why am I feeling this? Oh, I feel like I want to do this or that. Probably not a good thing. And [00:26:00] so it's really catching ourselves in the act of being very much in the moment. And registering what we're feeling, what we're thinking, instead of to the quote unquote, losing it, and then after the fact, looking back when it's all but too late.

Jennifer Gardner: A hundred percent. I have a rule, because I get a lot of emails, and I get a lot of angry emails, often from other lawyers, right? And huge part of my job is conflict management when I'm practicing law. And one of my number one rules is I never react. Like sometimes I get triggered. I get really triggered by what I see the other side doing, which is so annoying.

In my opinion, wrong. And I want to send the scathing email, which I'm really good at doing, right? And I just don't. I'll write it and I'll save it. I do not press send. I do not, because it's really important that I vent. I need to be able to vent those feelings and emotions, I need to get a little bit more strategic and intentional.

How am I going to use this in a constructive way? And many times these [00:27:00] days when I see a real high conflict opponent on the other side and somebody who is just trying to ache me on and misrepresent what I say, I shut it down

Immediately. All communications are now in writing. I do not play that game.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Interesting. Actually, as you're telling that story, you're reminding me of, for many people, it's their favorite president, Abraham Lincoln. And he is known for writing these scathing letters, obviously, they didn't have email back in the day, but he would write these scathing letters, put everything down on paper, what he was feeling in the moment, but then he did Something very smart.

He filed it away, never again to see the light of day. And whoever he was scathing about never knew they weren't the worst for it. In fact, they were the better for it. He got it out of his system, probably went to bed that night, woke up saying, okay, I feel better. Life just goes on. Let me figure out how I can deal with this.

Jennifer Gardner: I did not know that story. Thank you for sharing. I was just watching a Lincoln documentary the other day. He's so interesting. His early years were so interesting, [00:28:00] but just getting back to that anecdote that you just shared. Every time I write an email under these circumstances and I file it away, when I come back to it an hour or two, a day later, two days later, I'm always grateful I didn't send it, always.

I can't think of one time. That I could have sent it where I'm like, damn, I should have sent that nasty email, you know, never,

Jeffrey Feldberg: sure. For

Jennifer Gardner: never,

Jeffrey Feldberg: And then at the same time, if we want to be. Having that art of persuasion. Someone says something to us, a customer says something to us, a prospect says something to us, a neighbor says something to us, and it really lights us up. Well, at that point we have no persuasion. They're looking at us possibly scared, maybe fearful.

Possibly thinking, who is this idiot? Look at how they're reacting. I can't relate, or I even want to deal with a person like that versus hearing them, keeping your collectiveness, being calm, and then going into the strategies that you're talking about, the strategies that you teach of how to take that feedback, [00:29:00] work with it, and actually move the dial in a very positive way.

How am I doing with that?

Jennifer Gardner: Amazing, perfect. And let me illustrate that a little bit more with another idea, which is the power of silence. The power of silence is huge. It's huge. Saying nothing is sometimes game changing in a situation. Silence creates its own power vortex. And what it's doing is it's Sort of knocking the other side off their game because they're now wondering, oh, wow, what happened?

Where'd they go? What are they thinking? What are they doing? So now they may have been on the offense, suddenly they're on the defense and second guessing themselves and wondering what your next move is going to be. It's super effective.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so let me ask you about that with the power of silence. And I've seen the power of that work for me and also against me at times. It seems to be built into the human condition [00:30:00] where we hear this, some people call it a pregnant pause, or this long period of silence, and it creates this discomfort.

What's going on with that? Behind the scenes, you're talking about emotional intelligence, the human psyche, why do people feel uncomfortable when we just stop talking and it's silence? 

Jennifer Gardner: I need to research this content, this idea, this concept deeper because I'm really, really interested in it, but I was recently in a conference and we were discussing this concept of silence and silence. in the context of making eye contact and pausing, right? When you're speaking as a way of being up, enhancing your communication skill and your power, your perceived power and the instructor.

And I'm going to pull this up and we can have another conversation about it. If you'd like, like on your podcast or off your podcast, but I didn't forget this because it relates directly to what you just asked me and what we're talking about. She [00:31:00] said that if you are quiet. And you hold eye contact for a little too long, it's a total domination power move.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And so, is that a positive or is that a negative? I'm just looking at you and it's a little bit too long, is it creating an awkwardness of, hey, who's this weirdo? what are they trying to do to me? This feels really bizarre, I want to run in the opposite direction or, oh, wow, okay, this person is bold, they're looking at me straight in the eye, they're not flinching, this is kind of cool.

What's going on with that either way? Where do we land on that?

Jennifer Gardner: Well, it's considered a power mode. This was in the context of like powerful communications, negotiation skills presentation skills, meeting skills. It was, what do we do? How do we assert our dominance and our authority? Because if you want to be an effective communicator, you want to be seen as someone who's authoritative, someone who is confident, someone who is warm, someone who is competent.

The power of the pause is [00:32:00] something that Bill Clinton did a lot, supposedly. It's something Obama does a lot. It's something even Michelle Obama does a lot. And these are people that are really respected for their speaking skills. I mean, Clinton uses it, Bill Clinton uses it regularly.

And so it's, this was what we were discussing in this conference that I was at.

And I find it really fascinating. I've used silence a lot. To my advantage, a lot of times, without even realizing what I was doing. But it's also a really great way for us, as the communicator, feeling the stress and the pressure of having to say the right thing, right? Everything we say is going to have an impact, ideally, it reminds me of how important it is to utilize that power, not just to control and manipulate and dominate others, but to come back to ourselves and get really clear on what is our goal here? What is the solution we're working towards? What is the end result that we're aiming for? And what is our purpose?

What is our mission? Fundamentally, [00:33:00] on a human level.

Jeffrey Feldberg: So Jennifer, I would love your thoughts as follows. When I'm playing a game, if I know the rules of the game, if I know what works, what doesn't work, my outcome is likely increased, that I'll get a favorable or positive outcome.

So when I'm going through your program, the Art of Influence, you're teaching me the different techniques and strategies. My question for you is, when I can recognize what the other party is doing, how does that help me? Does that actually give me an edge versus I don't know any of this, I'm just walking in blind and I'm at their disposal to do whatever they want to do.

Jennifer Gardner: I think that it gives you an advantage. Because you can start to see this as a game. And I think that in business and in law and in life, there's always going to be people that have more skills and more knowledge and more things and more toys and less than us and where we're at, and so we're going to encounter all of them on our journeys.

And I think that if we can recognize. What the other person is doing, where they're coming from, what they're doing, whether they are aware of it [00:34:00] or not, it's going to help us sort of dial back our own stress level, and be able to think more strategically in the moment, and be able to marry that If you'll pardon the expression, with the emotions that we need to regulate in order to really steer things in the direction that we want, this is thinking at a very sophisticated level because it requires, self knowledge, self awareness that you can then project and translate and use to interpret it.

So it's about the conduct and the communications of the other person, and it's, which is emotional intelligence in a way, it's utilizing emotional intelligence skills of self regulation and self control, and it's using The skill, the playbook, the tool set, if you will, the screwdriver, the drill, the sander, whatever you need to make the thing you're trying to make.

And it's working with all of these in a very dynamic process, which to me, once I figured it out and I saw what I was doing that I loved, I just had to share with the world and do more of [00:35:00] myself because it's fun. It's fun when you can see things from this high level perspective suddenly work. And the whole game of getting along with other people to get what you want and find common solutions to our problems becomes fun.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yeah, that's interesting. So, Jeffrey, let me ask you this, because you said something really intriguing. You said, yes, Jeffrey, this really is a game. And as you're saying that, I've heard other people say that, Jeffrey, come on. It's just a game. Don't take things personally. And there are times when it's hard not to take things personally.

And I'm reminded of William Shakespeare and this famous quote, All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, and one man in his time plays many parts. Which, my interpretation of that is, Hey, yeah, it really isn't personal what Jennifer's saying.

So and so is just playing the part, and how we respond or don't respond That's really up to me, and it's up to me, am I going to have a favorable outcome or a not so favorable outcome that I'm [00:36:00] now picking up the phone, Jennifer, and calling you, help get me out of this situation, because I took it personally.

So how do we transform it from, hey, this is very personal to, yeah, okay, maybe the person's coming across in a certain way, but it's not personal, it's just a game. What insights, suggestions can you give us for that?

Jennifer Gardner: Oh, I love that question. Wow. You ask such amazing questions, Jeffrey. Really, these are so good. They're really next level. I would say it gives you perspective. It gives you perspective. If you can sort of step back, And see this for what it is, all the world's stage. And we're just players on this stage.

And there are going to be some people that aren't as sophisticated or as evolved as you, Jeffrey, like in your recognition of this and your sight of Shakespeare, and you can step back and see them for who they are and where they're at in this. And I think that it really helps ease. The stress of going through a high stakes, high conflict situation where there's a lot on the [00:37:00] line, which we're often doing in business or as lawyers. it just, to me, when I can humanize the process and humanize the people who are in the process and sort of have this high level perspective of what we're all going through, it gives us the power to shift the narrative. Our own experience of being involved in these dynamics so that it's easier for us and if it's easier for us, then we're more effective when we're doing our work.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Interesting. So, let me ask you this, because you've done an incredible job, Jennifer. You've been helping us put in place the foundation of what you're doing, where it's coming from, how it's working. So, in a practical sense now, let's take this back from, perhaps, the court arena to the business arena, and as a leader, entrepreneur, founder, there's some difficult news that I have to give a customer or a team member.

Perhaps we're letting go of a customer, perhaps we're going to let go of a team member, perhaps the business. Something just didn't go to plan. From the art of [00:38:00] persuasion, using your techniques and strategies, and I know there's a whole system here and you'd be perfectly right to say, well, Jeffrey, it's not just this one thing that I'm going to share with you, it's the whole, if I can use a fancy word, gestalt of it.

You have to know the strategies and the systems. But generally speaking, when it comes down to a challenging message, what some people could take very personally, it could be hurtful to them, or it could be scary for them, how do we approach that and, as best we can, still come out with a win?

Mm 

Jennifer Gardner: Well, I'm thinking right off the top of my head about CEOs who have to deliver bad news to, in corporations, to their teams, their employees, their humans their resources, and how frightening and unsettling it can be. And I think that. CEOs that are able to empathize with the people that they're delivering the bad news to or who are leading them through an uncertain time.

It's a huge opportunity for, to really be a [00:39:00] great leader, and so I think that the most important thing is to acknowledge. The, be honest with people about what's going on, to acknowledge how they might find it an unsettling time, to acknowledge their contribution, to discuss their aspirations, and to paint a favorable picture that everybody can aspire to, using the most basic Emotional, human language that you possibly can, and at the same time, show that you're confident, show that you're competent, that you know what you're doing, that you can weather this storm project warmth and genuine caring for the humans who are going to be affected by these changes.

Jeffrey Feldberg: , interesting because as we talk about the art of persuasion, I don't want to oversimplify it and I don't want to confuse simple with simplicity. In hearing you just share that pearl of wisdom right now, one of my takeaways is Hey, Jeffrey, be kind. Yes, you can be firm, [00:40:00] and you can have your way of looking at things, and perhaps people aren't going to agree with it, but it doesn't mean that you have to be overpowering.

It doesn't mean that you have to be a jerk. Be a human. Be kind. Show some compassion without shortchanging yourself, or without giving up something that's important to you, but you can still be kind about that. Thoughts about that?

Jennifer Gardner: think kindness is so important. I think our world is so cruel and arbitrary and people are really hurting. A lot of people are really hurting and angry and upset and kindness goes a long way, a little bit of kindness and real help. And I do think that if we take the focus off ourselves and we focus on others and we practice kindness, random acts of kindness, as we see on bumper stickers, it's really, There's a lot to that idea, there's a lot to that concept, and it turns out that it helps you to be kind to other people, because the more that you project your kindness, the more you're going to receive in return.

We've hit upon some really interesting, big, high [00:41:00] level concepts in our talk today, and one of them was this whole question of emotional intelligence and right brain communication. And communicating from that place, we as humans perceive so much from cues. That we read on an unconscious level, you know, our brains take the information in from other people and we read it and we digest it and we process it on an unconscious level.

This is something that I'm so fascinated with because I really do believe that in business, the more we can project the outcome that we want, the better. And the way that we want other people to feel, the more that's exactly how they're going to feel. And there are all kinds of studies that have been done out there that I'm in the process of researching right now for my educational programs where this has been demonstrated thanks to functional MRI and functional other forms of imaging in brains of humans.

It's the neuroscience and it's all about getting people to feel a certain way and how you make them feel is going to come back at you. It's [00:42:00] going to come back at you. I mean, there was a study that I was hearing about the other day as I was listening to a podcast, I can't recall off the top of my head, which one it was, but the expert was talking about how functional.

MRI is showing that when you like other people, even if though you may be extroverted and shy and lack confidence, other people will show likeness towards you. They will like you more. It's really, you hear that your vibe attracts your tribe or those are bad vibes. Well, there's so much that's really happening in the right side of our brains that people are feeling in their right sides of their brains.

And that they're intuiting based on gesture and cues and eye contact and how you speak and what you're projecting, that they're feeling and going to send back to you. They're intuiting this unconsciously and it really does affect outcomes in your personal life and in your business life.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely. Jennifer, it's interesting in our 90 day Deep Wealth Mastery Program. [00:43:00] And if we go within our Deep Wealth nine step roadmap, step three, future buyer. So this is where your future buyer, it could be a new customer. It could be you're looking to onboard a new employee, a new team member.

It could be a future investor or buyer. It comes down to your point, well, how persuasive are you? How's your narrative? How do you tell that story? And we actually go into the science of it. We do a lot of the art of it. We also do a lot of the science of it. And to your point, when I'm a great storyteller, when I can be genuine, when I can be vulnerable, when I can be open, interesting, When they did the MRI on people that were watching and the presenter the areas in the brain that was lighting up in the presenter Those same areas were lighting up in the people that were watching and in this particular study They go on to say have you ever wondered why when you're watching your favorite Picket, you're a sports player, or it's going to be a rock star and they're out there on stage and they're really going [00:44:00] at it and you're watching them, you're feeling the same things that they're feeling.

It's just part of the human condition and we don't even know that it's happening. So to your point, people within seconds, milliseconds, we walk in that room, we hop on that Zoom call, they're already making judgments about us. We haven't said a word. And even if we're speaking, sure, they're hearing the words, but they're not hearing the words.

How am I saying it? How's my body position? What's my tonality like? That's what's going into it, where the actual words themselves are way down on that list in terms of being persuasive, as we talk about that. So spot on with what you're sharing with us.

Jennifer Gardner: Yeah. I'm fascinated by this and this field is really, I There's been work that's being done or has been done for the last 20 or so years, but the technology is giving us the ability to measure what's actually happening inside brains. I'm interested in how this happens between, you know, human to human, human to animal.

I [00:45:00] have a dog, I have a horse, I practice on them all the time, And interspecies communication is one of my. Something that I just really love. And like horses can really feel your emotions and they're taking cues from you. If you're nervous, they're going to be nervous.

They're pretty animals. They're really finely tuned. So I'm, I ride horses, so I do that, but my dog, this is interesting. She's 13 and a half. She's sleeping over here and I'm looking at her. She's such an angel and she's losing her hearing and she's losing eyesight. Now she can hear percussive noises, like a I don't want to wake her, her eyes just went up.

She can hear that, but she cannot hear tones, vocal tones, but she and I are communicating just fine. Fine. I use a lot of hand commands and I use a lot of energy. I think she reads lips and she can sense when I'm, when I have a sense of urgency, like come here now versus come on, let's go. There's a difference and they feel it.

That's my point.

Jeffrey Feldberg: It's so interesting. And, [00:46:00] before we go into rapid mode, what I'm thinking in terms of your journey, what you shared with us, really, and again, you can say Jeffrey Ambay's off base, being a lawyer, not all the time, but I would suspect a lot of the times, particularly when it's criminal or you're defending someone or you're actually protecting someone, you are seeing not the best side of the human condition.

And in those situations, you've had to figure out in real time. Okay, how do I get the best outcome for my client? They really didn't do anything, they are innocent here. But if I can't get that across, it's not going to be a good outcome for them. And what's interesting now, those strategies which come from the courtroom, you're now bringing to the boardroom of, here's what you can do, you have the best product, you're solving a painful problem, well, you're not going to be in business unless you can get some customers.

So let's talk about how you can get some customers, let's talk about how you can get your frontline employees up to your senior leadership all on the same page, with the same vision, you're marching in the same direction. So it's really [00:47:00] incredible. What you're doing, Jennifer, of bringing that from the courtroom to the boardroom in a way that's meaningful for entrepreneurs, because this is not theory.

This is not some course that you're teaching in some kind of an educational school or program. This is from the trenches. It's been tried. It's been proven. I absolutely love that. And so let me ask you this. There are so many questions I have not asked. Is there one question that comes top of mind for you, or is there a topic that we haven't covered, or even a message?

That you'd like to share with the Deep Wealth Nation before we go into wrap up mode.

Jennifer Gardner: Yes, absolutely. I know you, a couple of times you touched upon story and the importance of being able to use story to communicate effectively. And I just want to bring that back to this whole idea of right brain. Lately, I've been thinking about emotional intelligence and right brain communication, and I've been Researching that and neuroscience studies related to that and social psychology studies on a very deep level.

I'm very inspired by this because I feel it's the next generation [00:48:00] of having communications about storytelling and why it works. I know you get this, and I'm sure your, listeners do too, but just, if stories are activating the right brain, what else can we do aside from telling stories?

What else can we do? Well, there's so much more that we can do that relates to everything that we've just been talking about. I'd like people to just become aware of the fact that they need to be the right brain leader. or the right brain lawyer or the right brain entrepreneur.

This is really the keys to the kingdom because people make decisions and we impact others based on how we make them feel. I think it was Maya Angelou who said, they never forget how you make them feel. And we have an opportunity to make people feel certain ways. All day long, every day. And I'm not saying it's easy. It can be exhausting, okay? If you're trying to make a challenging person on the other side of your communication feel the way you want them to feel, or to feel even the compassion for them for example, in my criminal cases, there's a reason why I don't do that work [00:49:00] anymore, Geoffrey, and it's because I'm too sensitive.

It was too exhausting. In order to do a really good job as a lawyer, you have to feel everybody's position and really put yourself in their shoes and understand the human dynamics from every player's perspective, including the jury, including the judge, your client, your adversary, their client, their witnesses, the experts.

Everybody comes in with an emotional agenda, whether they're aware of it or not.

And it was exhausting for me, so that's why I don't do that work anymore but yes, it's all about feelings and you can have a huge impact if you would just tune into feelings. I hate to steer these conversations towards politics, but I really do see the contest in elections as being a contest between who has really tapped into the emotions of the voters and who can really communicate to them in a way that they understand that's going to reach those emotions.

People will not be able to tell you the facts on issues. And in fact, they get the facts wrong and they [00:50:00] identify the wrong facts, but the wrong candidates all the time, they mix them up. And yes, it's very confusing out there. I understand that. But it's all about how you make people feel. Everything we do, that's high level, making people feel, right?

I'm talking about us in micro moments, like boots on the ground, in everyday experience. Starting with at the grocery store, when you're checking out and you're talking to the clerk, or your assistant, even if it's only a virtual communication, they can feel it.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yeah. So important. We take it for granted. And to your point, particularly in a business, so many leaders go off track, and I've been in this position myself, making the mistake Well, I have a certain title after my name, so that automatically gets me respect and gets me loyalty, and actually it doesn't.

People will perhaps do it, but if they don't respect you, they're not going to go to the moon and back for you. It has to be earned, and it's how we treat people, and what I love about what you're sharing, you don't really hear enough about this out there, hey, [00:51:00] emotional intelligence, go to that right side of the brain.

It's like a muscle. Practice with it, build it, get it stronger, and you'll see an immediate ROI in your dealings with people. And of course, going through your program, it's a fast track to learning the techniques that work in a genuine and authentic way, and very powerful what you're doing there. And speaking of that, Jennifer, we are now in wrap up mode.

My goodness, there were so many different questions still buzzing around in my head, but that said, here on the Deep Wealth Podcast, it's our tradition where every guest, I have the privilege, I have the honor of asking the same question. It's a really fun one, so let me set this up for you. When you think of the movie Back to the Future, you had that magical DeLorean car that's gonna take you to any point in time.

So the fun part, Jennifer, is tomorrow morning, you look outside your window, not only is the DeLorean car curbside, The door is open, it's waiting for you to hop on in, which you do, you're now going to go to any point in your life. Jennifer as a young child, a teenager, whatever [00:52:00] point in time it would be.

What would you tell your younger self in terms of life lessons or life wisdom or hey, Jennifer, do this, but don't do that. What would it sound like? Yeah,

Jennifer Gardner: Oh my gosh. I would tell myself to stop stressing out about, I'm not doing a good enough job because I had it right all along, but people weren't talking or thinking about these ideas at that time, and the culture hadn't caught up to these ideas. and I would say, you know what, you're okay, you're fine, you can relax a little bit more and enjoy your life a little bit more, because I was a very stressed out young lawyer.

I wanted to do well so badly, I didn't want to harm anybody by making a mistake. I wanted to succeed, right? For my own personal reasons, not just my clients. And I put myself under an incredible amount of pressure. So I would go back in that DeLorean to that time of my life, probably 30 years ago when I was really putting so much blood, sweat, and tears into absolutely everything I did.

[00:53:00] And I would tell myself to relax and enjoy life a little bit more. It's all good.

Jeffrey Feldberg: I love that. Hey, do your best and once you've done your best, relax, enjoy life. It's okay. It's all gonna work out. What terrific advice. And Jennifer, for a listener who has a question, they want you to coach them. They want to go through your program, The Art of Influence. PowerLab, all those wonderful things that you're doing, where would be the best place online for someone to reach you?

Jennifer Gardner: They should reach me at jenniferbgardner. com or on LinkedIn at jenniferbgardner and it's really that simple. There's all sorts of ways that they can connect with me. They can send me an email. They can schedule a call very easy. They can even email me at jenniferbgardner at gmail. com.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Love that! Deep Wealth Nation, you have Jennifer's email, you have everything in the show notes, it's a point and click. Reach out to Jennifer, speak with her, go through the program, you'll come out smarter, wiser, better for it, you'll get terrific results. Well, Jennifer, [00:54:00] it's official, congratulations, this is a wrap, and as we love to say here at Deep Wealth, may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain healthy and safe.

Thank you so much.

Jennifer Gardner: Thank you so much for this opportunity to share these ideas with you and your listeners. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun. 

Jeffrey Feldberg: So there you have it, Deep Wealth Nation. What did you think? 

So with all that said and as we wrap it up, I have another question for you.

Actually, it's more of a personal favor. 

Did you find this episode helpful? 

Have you found other episodes of the Deep Wealth Podcast empowering and a game changer for your journey? 

And if you said yes, and I really hope you did, I have a small but really meaningful way that you can actually help us out and keep these episodes coming to you.

Are you ready for it? 

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So [00:56:00] all that said. Thank you so much for listening. And remember your wealth isn't just about the money in the bank. It's about the depth of your journey and the impact that you're creating. So let's continue this journey together. And from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for listening to this episode.

And as we love to say here at Deep Wealth, may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain healthy and safe. 

Thank you so much. 

God bless.