539 Mark Pierce

Jeffrey Feldberg: [00:00:00] There's a strange moment that happens to many successful people from the outside, everything looks great. The business works, the money's there. The life appears protected, but underneath it all sits a quieter truth. Most people spend their entire lives learning how to build Wealth and almost no time learning how quickly it can be taken away.

Mark Pierce has lived his career in that uncomfortable truth for over four decades. He's worked for money, power, fear, and human behavior collide. As a CPA bankruptcy litigator, tax court advocate and attorney, he's seen what happens when people assume success is the same thing as security. He's watched families, founders, and high net worth individuals discover often too late that the things they thought would protect them were never really protection at all.

That experience led him to build Wyoming Trust Attorney, where he helps clients use Wyoming trust structures to protect assets, preserve [00:01:00] control, and think far more deeply about legacy vulnerability and what Wealth actually is for. What makes Mark so compelling is that he doesn't speak from theory, he speaks from the wreckage he's witnessed, the patterns he's studied and the uncomfortable reality the higher you climb, the more exposed you often become.

And before we start this episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Deep Wealth and the 90 Day Deep Wealth Mastery Program. Here's Jane, a graduate who says, and I quote, the Deep Wealth Mastery Program prevented me from making what would have been one of the biggest mistakes of my career. I almost signed on the dotted line with an unsolicited offer that I now realized would have shortchanged my hard work and my future had I accepted that offer. Deep Wealth Mastery has tilted the playing field to my advantage.

Or how about Lyn? Wow, he gets right to the point, and I quote, Deep Wealth Mastery is one of the best investments ever made because you'll get an ROI of a hundred times that. Anyone who doesn't go through this will lose [00:02:00] millions. 

And as you're listening to these testimonials, are you wondering if you have the time? Are you even thinking that you've got this covered, you have the advisors or people in your network? Well, I got to tell you, these myths, they're often behind the 90 percent failure rate for liquidity events. Think about it. You have one chance to get it right for your financial freedom. You really want to make it count.

And when it comes to time, let's hear what William has to say. We just got in this testimonial, William says, and I quote, I didn't have the time for Deep Wealth Mastery. But I made the time and I'm glad I did. What I learned goes far beyond any other executive program or coach I've experienced. 

So what do you think?

As I hear that, that's exactly what gets me out of bed every day. That's my mission. That's the team's mission here at Deep Wealth to literally change the social fabric of society. One business owner at a time, one liquidity event at a time, and my Deep Wealth Nation, what I want you to know, the Deep Wealth Mastery Program, it isn't theory.

It's from the trenches. It's the only one based on a nine figure deal. And that [00:03:00] deal, that was my deal. You know my story. I said no to a seven figure offer. I created the system that later on, myself and my business partners, we said yes to a different buyer, a different offer, a nine figure deal. That's what we now call the Deep Wealth Mastery Program or the Scale For Ultimate Sales system.

It's built by business owners, for business owners, so if you're interested in growing your profits for preparing for a future liquidity event, and that may be two years away, it could be 22 years away, whatever the time may be, you want to do this now, and you want to optimize your post exit life, Deep Wealth Mastery is for you.

To get started, email success at deepwealth. com. Again, that's success. S U C C E S S at DeepWealth. com. You'll receive all the information about the Deep Wealth Mastery Program or better yet, why not hop on a complimentary strategy call.

We'll go through exactly where your business is today and what's standing between you and your financial independence and your dreams. So that's where you want to be. [00:04:00] You want to be with other successful business owners, entrepreneurs, and founders, just like you they're looking to grow their businesses, create markets.

Market disruptions and unlock their financial freedom to get what they deserve. And whether you've been in business for three years, 40 years, you're a startup, you're manufacturing you're in high tech, low tech, whatever the case may be, coming in and network with other business owners, it's a safe space.

It's a confidential space with business owners, with businesses just like you, because they all wanna lock in their financial freedom and enjoy both success and fulfillment. So again, the 90 Day Deep Wealth Mastery Program, it has your name on it. All you need to do is take the next step. Please send an email to success at deepwealth. com.

Deep Wealth Nation, welcome to another episode of the Deep Deep Wealth Nation well, deep Deep Wealth Nation, a couple of questions for you and they are rhetorical questions. You know me, I love rhetorical questions and actually one's the saying because here at Deep Wealth, it's not how much profits you earn or if you're exiting what your exit deal is, it's how [00:05:00] much you keep.

And then while we're at it. You can be running a great business, but are you fully protected? Are you protecting your business? And when it comes to taxes, are you protecting yourself from taxes? Because all your great effort, your hard work, if Uncle Sam is coming in and taking most of it, well, let's see what we can do legally to change that story.

But there's probably a better story there. And you're asking, well, Jeffrey, what do I do? Where do I begin? You've come to the right place. We have a very special guest in the House of Deep Wealth. We have a fellow founder, entrepreneur. Thought leader and incredible advisor that you're gonna learn all about.

Mark, welcome to the Deep Wealth Nation. An absolute pleasure to have you with us. There's always a story behind the story. What's your story? What got you from where you were to where you are today?

Mark Pierce: Well, first of all, Jeffrey, thank you for having me on. I've taken a look at your podcast. I'm really impressed by the breadth and the depth of the topics that you have examined here. And I like your beginning opening, saying, you know, it's about what you keep at the end of the day, because that's all about what we're going to talk about today.

So my story [00:06:00] really begins in the late 1880s in Ohio, where my family became involved in drilling for oil wells, using horses and pulleys. The evolution of that business into a very successful business that was destroyed by inheritance, taxes and divorce. So this is something that's, very near and dear to me because we survived two world wars.

We survived PTSD within the family, we survived one of my uncles being shot by Germans as a, as an escapee from a B 17 and a bombing rod. And so at the end of the day, when we came into the 1960s, my grandfather died. We didn't have a legacy plan in place and the government took a pretty good chunk of the business that we had built up over that period of time.

And then my uncle got divorced and that was the end of it. They sold, the business went off, and they sold it right before a huge run up in the economy and the business thatThere, so they missed out. So they got a little bit of money in the bank, enough to live on for the remainder of their lives, but did not.

Leave that success to the remainder of the family. So we had to go find something else to do. [00:07:00] So it's been my goal throughout the last 43 years to protect, preserve, to get you the plan for legacies. Legacies are, you know, first, second, third generation. How do you leave something that's viable for your family?

And you've got two sorts of risks, right? You've got the outside risks. And we just talked about the 2008 financial crisis, the 20 21, 20. 22 COVID issue that went on over a period of time that destroyed a lot of wealth. that is an external risk that we always face. What are the internal risks that you face?

How does your family evolve? How do you provide for legacy plannings? How do you provide for your families that don't want to be involved in the business, or most importantly, should not be involved in that business? So that's what I've devoted my life to. How do we get legacy planning in place? How do we structure it?

How do we move it forward? So you're talking about taxes, minimization of taxes, but the other thing that you're doing more than anything else. You're planning about the involvement of your family, and that requires a day-to-day monitoring. Sometimes depending upon how large your family is and how [00:08:00] verse they are in the business.

So that's why I'm in the business of what I'm trying to get across.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Mark, it's absolutely incredible to hear how you can trace your family back to the previous century and what's going on with that. Talk about a legacy in and of itself. I'm wondering just before we dive into some of the incredible things that you're doing, how did that family narrative, that family story when you're growing up, when you look back to Mark as a young child, did that impact you or influence you in any way?

And how so? If it did?

Mark Pierce: Oh it's the base of who I am. My father was significantly impacted by the depression. My uncle Roy was, came back with PTSD from his service in the US Army as they Markhed across, he was in the second wave at D-Day and they Markhed across into Germany. two of his friends died and there his arms.

I had another uncle. Who had PTSD and really never came back and that impacted the way in which that family business was run and operated and also affected the dynamics that we had within our family. And you can [00:09:00] read a number of psychological folks about children of PTSD. Individuals. So that was one of the things that went on.

And then you evolve into the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, and the financial turbulence that we'd experienced during that time. And you looked at the impact of it and the impact of the tax regulations and the impact of the dynamics within the family. Those are things that all had a significant effect on me being brought up.

So I always view myself as somebody who plans for the worst and hopes for the best. If it turns out, that's great, and if it doesn't turn out, we're not gonna we're gonna live through it. that's how I approach it because it seems to me as an entrepreneur, we have a tendency to lie to ourselves that no matter how bad the financial crisis of 2008 was, it'll never happen again.

And you look up and you go, it happens every 50 years. And sometimes 30. So why am I trying to kid myself? And when you look at your family, a good hard dose of reality on your family, really who's set up within that family to run this business, both from [00:10:00] the business temperament, the personality, also from the intellect that it takes to see and to evolve your business over a period of time.

So those are things that all directly affected me.

Jeffrey Feldberg: It's interesting because technology may change society in terms of some of the rules may change. What doesn't change is the human condition, and you're absolutely right. If we wanna know what to expect in the future, look to the past and sure we may have a different vernacular, different words, different times.

Really it's one and the same, which is something I found fascinating with you when I was preparing for today. My goodness, CPA bankruptcy litigator, tax court advocate, an attorney. You're dealing now with trust. You've seen the human condition and there's that saying, if you really want to see how somebody is either.

Have them with a lot of money or have them with no money, and you'll see who they really are. So very high level when it comes to the human condition. What have you seen in your [00:11:00] four decades wearing those different hats when it does come to the human condition, especially for founders who may be thinking, Hey, my bubble in my world, everything couldn't be better.

Everything is great. But in that narrative, we're ignoring the human condition and dealing with other stakeholders, potentially investors or even JV partners, or the list just goes on and on of what could be there. What would you want us to know from what you've seen in really likely the worst of times for many people that you're now trying to help and climb out of the situation where they're at?

What would you want us to know?

Mark Pierce: I think that you have to approach your life with a level of optimism, but you also have to temper it with a hard dose of reality. And what I saw when I came outta law school in 1983, I came into the Denver legal community, and this is where I got my bankruptcy expertise because by 1990, there was not one bank that was alive in 1983.

In 1983 in the cold states, Colorado, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Texas. Not one bank from 1983 made it to [00:12:00] 1990, and we had the FDIC came in liquidating properties. It was the end of the earth, unless it wasn't, and I saw one family in particular that went out and just began buying up shopping centers for like 10 cents, 5 cents on the dollar.

Today. There were billions of dollars because of the upswing in the economy that came from that, but they took a cold dose of reality. What do you have? What can you take and what can you apply into the future? So if you're looking at that bubble saying, I have to preserve what I have, and you're always saying, well, if I can live at 90%.

Oh, I can live at 80, I can live at seven, I can live at six. What happens when it hits 10? Why don't you just drop to the bottom, act like you've lost everything and begin pushing forward from that direction? 'cause we all started at zero to begin with. So you've gotta be optimistic, but you also gotta realize where you are.

And when you have that level of friction within the economy with falling, collapsing economy, you also have opportunities. So take a deep breath. I. Get a glass of water and say, okay, where do I want to be in 10 years? And how do I get there in the [00:13:00] economic and financial and legal environment that I have right now?

And those are the individuals who succeeded in Denver in 1983 to 2000, or in Oklahoma or in Texas. And you've seen those states that have experienced massive infusions into their economy and become very successful over that period of time. Because of a few entrepreneurs. So that would be my advice, is take a hard dose of reality of what your circumstances are, no matter how good your business has been.

Don't count on to be that good into the future. And the other thing is always reserve a little bit of nest egg off to the side because like T. Boone Pickens set, this guy absolutely Wildcatter, catter, and a gambler, but he took advice from people who had lived through the twenties and thirties. And they said, Boone, no matter how good it is, make sure you leave the table so that you got enough to get back on the table.

So you know what? Take that 10%, put it in your pocket, put it off someplace. 'cause that 10 percent's gonna be worth a lot more than a hundred percent you got today. You have a 90% pullback.

Jeffrey Feldberg: It's some great advice and deep Deep Wealth Nation [00:14:00] as we're talking about this deep Deep Wealth Nation. I wanna take you to the deep default nine step roadmap and specifically step forward due diligence and step six advisory team, because Mark. From our vantage point, our thesis is this, whether I am a founder and I want to grow my profits, no plans to sell whatsoever, or I'm a founder, yeah, I do wanna grow my profits, I do want to sell the business, or partial or full, whatever the case may be.

In the near term, now is a time to begin that preparation. And in step four, due diligence, people that are going through our 90 day mastery programs, they are finding those skeletons in the closet that they know of. But then we go back to step four after we go to step six, and you bring on your advisory team.

Well, before you decide I'm going to market, because by the time you say I'm going to market now, who are my advisors? Wow, you got a lot of catch up time. You're not gonna get the best deal. You'll get any deal if that. And what's amazing when we have the right advisors. In our circle, and we're going [00:15:00] through that process, and we're gonna speak about your process in just a moment.

The gaps, the skeletons. Oh, I never realized that I should be doing this, or maybe I shouldn't be doing that. And again, it goes back to how we started our conversation together. It's not how much you earn or how much you make. It's how much you keep. So with that in mind, let's make a big assumption here.

I'm a founder, heard you on the Depo podcast. I'm not in any sort of trouble here. Things are going. As expected, maybe even better than expected, but after hearing you, yeah. Okay. I want to be prepared, especially in Mark's area. So let's roll back the curtain here. Learn a little bit about your secret sauce.

So I'm showing up. Okay. Mark heard you on the Deep Deep Wealth Nation. Walk me through your system here. What's in it for me? We're gonna tune into the world's favorite radio session, Wii fm. But the what's in it for me is for People Nation. Not you, not I. And what are we doing? How long does it take? What can I expect?

So walk us through that and we'll just take the assumption that it's very, a high level of advice because Mark, you'd be perfectly correct and say, well, Jeffrey, every founder is [00:16:00] different. Every business is different. It really depends. We don't do a cookie cutter approach. I hear you on that.

Generally speaking though, what does it look like?

Mark Pierce: The first thing you've gotta do is say, who are the people you got around you? Who are the members of your family? Who has the ability to work within the company? Who doesn't? Who you know it, it is like a smorgasbord. If you wanna come in and eat, you have to have the abilities to come in and eat.

If you don't, then you know, how do we take care of you when you're outside of that dynamic? So you have to make a real clear assessment on who and your family can participate in the business and how they can participate. And if you've got people coming up to groom them. And then also you've gotta have a good set of advisors.

And you're exactly right. You gotta have a good accomplice. You have to have an excellent account and you have to have a good business attorney and a good estate planning attorney and legacy planning attorney 'cause this is what you're doing. 'cause no business is set forever. If you took a look at the s and p 500 from, say, 50 years ago, how many of them are still on here?

IBM barely made it in away from the mainframe computer business into what they are now by the skin of their teeth. So you take a look at [00:17:00] that. Now you're looking at AI on the transition. So you say, Hey, I'm in the real estate business. Okay, what does that mean? And where do you think real estate's gonna go over the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years?

I have no idea. And with AI coming in and being such a dynamic, particularly with the SaaS companies, you're looking at that saying, okay, if I'm in that business, what do I want? Well, I'll tell you what you want. You want to be in a position where you have cash back to see how things evolve so you can take advantage of what emerges over the next 10 years because that emergence is accelerating.

I find that to be really fascinating. I went to law school, CU Boulder, and there was a guy by the name of Phil Wiser there who put together this thing called the Silicon Flatirons. So CU Boulder's now enmeshed with the, with Stanford University out in California dealing with AI conferences, and there's been such a tremendous leap.

It was two years ago the gentleman who runs the thing came in and said, the biggest dynamic on LLMs is that. Two years ago, it took the place of a good third year law student research associate, [00:18:00] and two years later, it's taken the place of a good fifth year associate attorney. So tell me what the practice of law's gonna be like in 10 years and if you've modeled a traditional law firm after what's worked over the last 50 years, I think you've got a model that's gonna fall apart.

What's gonna emerge? I don't know, but some people see these things more clear than others. You don't need to see it perfectly, but you do have to have enough of cash off to the side of the table to evolve when you do see it perfectly and be the person that's involved with that. So the first thing we do is we looked at the family, we looked at the employees, we looked at the people who involved the human capital, and then we start taking a look at the, physical capital.

Your physical assets, your personal assets, your pension funds, these sorts of things that get them well structured to provide for people as you evolve as a family. that's it in a nutshell, and that fits pretty much everyone, I think, so it's not cookie cutter because it depends on what the answer to the questions are.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely, and I wanted to dispel a myth right now for deep Deep Wealth Nation before we start going deeper into what you're [00:19:00] doing, because there's many in deep Deep Wealth Nation who are saying. Hey, listen, an asset protection trust. Never heard of that. I know what assets are, but some kind of a trust estate planning.

Yeah, big picture wise I've heard of that. They may be saying though, well Mark, I'm just not rich enough to be able to do that, and I know only the wealthy and the rich do that. Yeah, I'm gonna be there one day, but that one day isn't today, so it's probably not for me. Let's dispel that right off the bat of why that is not the best way to approach this.

Mark Pierce: Oh, I always say that there should be a lip test if you've got $2 million in assets. There's not a lot of money these days. You have to have one of these. But if you're in a high risk profession or a high risk business, you need one of these as well. And the best time to start planning for your legacy is today if you haven't already done it, because you're gonna have to plan for it at some point in the future.

And one of the emphasis that you have within your deck is that you know, you've gotta start planning for an exit strategy now, or start plotting a strategy for the involvement of your business because. At the end [00:20:00] of the day, we need to get serious about what we have internally so that external sources can come in and make an examination of it and say, okay, you got what you got and you brought this up with pe.

So when you go through the PE process, and I was in that business for about 10 years. So you go through the PE process, man, that's a that's a hard dose of acid on whatever reality you've got going on. 'cause you find yourself realizing. Small business practices generally don't work very well when it comes to an exit strategy on gaining the best possible value for your buck.

So you've gotta bring the advisors in, you gotta conduct your business in a certain way, and part of that is structuring the business and structuring your legacy so the business survives.

Jeffrey Feldberg: What's interesting about that Mark, on this very podcast, I've had private equity, venture capital I've had buyers on, and no judgment with what I'm about to share. I typically find two buckets, and I'm gonna overgeneralize. I realize that one bucket is the type of investor or buyer who's saying, Hey, if there's all these skeletons in the closet.

I'm walking [00:21:00] away from the deal table. There is no deal here because I don't want a second full-time job, otherwise known as picking up the pieces that you left out once you're no longer on the scene, or the other type of buyer or investor is, oh wow. I hope the business is a mess because I am gonna significantly.

Discount or penalize the value of the business, otherwise known as the enterprise value. And so I want to pay pennies on the dollar because they haven't done some basic preparation, which could have made all the difference. And so with what you're saying, absolutely correct, and it's resonating here, but I wanna ask you something because you have asset protection trusts, then you have the Wyoming Asset Protection Trust.

So what's the difference?

Mark Pierce: Well, there are a number of states, I think there's 17, 18 states now that have specific statutes that allow you as an individual to establish a trust for your benefit called self settled trust. That's not recognized under the old law. It's gotta be a specific statutory provision to allow that.

Wyoming, I think it was like fourth or fifth [00:22:00] on the bandwagon, getting. And I read about it in The Economist back in 2001, it was called Wyoming, the New Offshore Trust or New onshore Offshore Trust jurisdiction. And that was in regards to LLCs, which Wyoming was the first state to adopt the LLCs. And it was in regards to trust.

So I was living, my family was originally from Wyoming, got a place in Wyoming, had headed there. It was across from a distillery in the 1920s when my grandfather was a judge. Figure out how we got that.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Well, there's a whole story behind the story on that one.

Mark Pierce: Yes, there is. Most of which I probably don't know, but I can surmise as to what it was. So, you know, you, you're looking at that and you're saying at the end of the day, I knew the guy who'd written the article.

He lives, down the street basically in Wyoming means, five or six miles away. So I went and I knocked on his door and went over a locked gate and went and knocked on his door and said, what's going on here? Because I didn't know. So he introduced me to the head of first Interstate Banks, treasury department, and trust departments, said Wyoming State Political Action Committee largely dominated by [00:23:00] banks, attorneys, and accountants have decided.

That the way to generate an additional business within the state is to develop these trusts. These trusts allow for infusion of a huge amount of money into the state of Wyoming that people can, service and do business with. And we're gonna take away the ability of banks and creditors to collect from individuals within the state.

So you had a substantial revision to the LLC rules, the trust rules, and the fraudulent transfer act that went on during that period of time. So Wyoming emerged and people will say. Why we believe in anonymity. Not that we're anonymous to the government. The banks know who you are.

They got the KYC rules. We are not anonymous to the IRS. But if you as a private citizen want to come find out my business, you can't do it through public records. We seal those records. So if you get into litigation involving a trust, we've got a chancery court that seals those records. In terms of fraudulent transfers, we've got 120 day period, which is the least.

Significant period of transfer under fraudulent transfer [00:24:00] acts in the United States. We believe that your business is your business and you're entitled to keep your money. And so that's what allows Wyoming with its view of the preservation of family assets to, I think, be the best trust jurisdiction in LLC jurisdictions in the United States.

Jeffrey Feldberg: What's interesting about this, and one of the things that we talk about in Deep Wealth Nation, and specifically in the Deep Wealth Mastery Growth or Deep Wealth Mastery Exit program, when you decide to either get some investors or sell the business or simply just have a rich and thriving business when it comes to Uncle Sam, you can't just put some tax.

Vehicles, and I use that in quotes because most of them don't work. You just can't put these in place and say, okay, uncle Sam, look I put this in yesterday, so my tax rate is now going down, not so quick. It takes time. You've gotta prove yourself depending on what's going on and where you're at. It could take many years to do that.

And I know when it comes to Wyoming. There's some specific things that you're [00:25:00] doing in terms of timelines relative not only to offshore, which we'll talk about in just a moment, but also domestically, where Wyoming has the advantage. Can you talk to us about that in, in terms of what makes it so special?

Having a Wyoming Asset Protection trust?

Mark Pierce: Yes. Once you establish a trust, you have to put things into it. That's called funding. So when you transfer those assets into the trust. You're gonna have a complete or an incomplete gift. If you have a complete gift, then you have a gift tax. If you have an incomplete gift, you do not. But if you have a complete gift, a gift tax, if you're a couple, you've got a $30 million exemption on the gift.

So if you have a rapidly appreciating asset now and you want to avoid estate taxes in the future, transfer 'em into the trust when it's worth 10 to 15 million, and then when it grows to a hundred and you sell it, you're still not subject to the estate taxation. That's one of the best advantages that you could possibly have.

Wyoming has no estate tax. Wyoming has no gift tax. Wyoming has no income tax, so if you move assets into that trust and [00:26:00] you make money, you're not gonna pay the state income tax that you have, say 12, 14% that you have in New, New Jersey and New York. Those are avoided and they're avoided over a long period of time.

 reducing your tax raised by 12 to 14% on a compounded basis gives you what in a 10 year period.

Jeffrey Feldberg: It's massive. Warren Buffet said the eighth Wonder of the world is compound interest. And so it all adds up. And so Deep Pulp Nation, can you imagine now you're fortunate you have a thriving, a growing business. You're working with Mark and team, you get these vehicles going for you, and down the road you have a hundred million dollars, $300 million, a gazillion dollar exit.

Well, again, it's not what you get, it's what you keep. And with the right kind of trust mark, what I'm hearing you say is perhaps even as high as $30 million perhaps, depending on how many family members there are. It could be more than that, that we're carving that out and so we're keeping more of the money.

And speaking of that, I want to ask you something because. In my time, I've seen all kinds of [00:27:00] these fancy tax avoidance kinds of schemes, and I'm using the word schemes very deliberately now, especially offshore, and perhaps some of them work. I found more times than not, though they may work, than they stop working, but at the very least.

It often raises eyebrows at Uncle Sam at the IRS, and now you find yourself in a full blown audit. So let's compare for a moment, an offshore trust. So I'm putting a trust and it's no longer in the us. It's in some of these fancy places in the world that we hear about, or it's actually now gonna be domestic.

And specifically in Wyoming. What would be the advantages? Why would I wanna do that?

Mark Pierce: Full faith and credit clause of the Constitution of the United States. One state has to give full faith and credit to the laws and the procedures of another state. You do not have to give full faith credit to Something like the Seychelles or the Nevis Islands or the Cook Islands. Cook Islands has 17,000 people on there.

Yeah. And a number of Swiss banks. Yeah. So at the end of the day, you're asking yourself, why would you need to take something to [00:28:00] Switzerland? If I can get it done here in the court's here will protect it. That's the question you have to ask. 'cause I know that if you don't report your offshore holdings either in the form of the trust of the LLCs that you have, there's a 50% penalty from the IRS.

They will come after you and enforce that sort of thing. So you've gotta disclose it to the IRS anyway. So it always seems to me that the federal government and the state governments really look at scan at that sort of thing. But if it's formed in another jurisdiction like Wyoming, they have to give Wyoming full faith and credit.

And I'll give you an example. There've been two cases in New Jersey in one in New York that I participated in. Were a family as a part of their legacy estate planning. And they had a husband and wife and kids who were not all in one state elected form a Wyoming Asset Protection Trust.

Put their assets there for purposes of lake planning. Okay? And this is a legitimate personal goal. you have to prepare and plan for transitions and debt. So when the couple who originally started the family got divorced six years after implementing the Asset protection trust.

They took it into [00:29:00] the divorce court and they said she wants her half, and the judge looked up and said, but she doesn't have half. She doesn't even have a property interest. She has elected to enter into Wyoming Asset Protection Trust, bound by Wyoming Law, and that Legacy Trust says it's her, her husband, and her three adult kids who have beneficial interests in that trust, but they're not property interest.

She will get what she bargained to get as that trust makes distributions out over the next couple years. So it's not part of the divorces state. So that was the efficacy of the thing. So in 36 states have held that trust from other states have efficacy in divorce proceedings.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yeah, so interesting nation, as we're talking about this, you may not necessarily be understanding all this. I admit I'm not fully understanding everything, but what I do know is. Hey, when I go to my car, I don't understand how the engine works. I just push a button. The engine starts and I drive. And it's the same thing when we have the right kind of advisor and in step six advisory team, we have a whole [00:30:00] scorecard and questions to ask to make sure you do have the right kind of advisor.

You have peace of mind at nighttime, okay, I've got the right advisors, is everything perfect? No, but life isn't perfect, but I'm doing the best that I can with the information that I have to get things right and to position myself, my family, the business, the legacy in the right area. Let's look at the opposite side because right now the glass is half full as it usually is with founders and entrepreneurs and business owners.

But I'm wondering, and again, it's more of a a general kind of question, but let's extrapolate that out. When you've seen people that are coming to you and it's not such a great story, something's happened. They weren't prepared, or a line was crossed and now they're in a whole lot of trouble. And yeah, you can fix it, mark, but it's gonna take time, it's gonna take money, it's gonna take their eye off the business.

They're now gonna have to divert funds that could have been used to grow the business to try and deal with this particular mess. Generally speaking, is it like the Frito's law, the 80 20 principle that, yeah, Jeffrey, you know what? 80% of these [00:31:00] challenges, which I call opportunities, but 80% of these challenges over here are coming from the same 20% of actions or inactions that they did or didn't do.

Is there a common pattern that you're seeing that shows up just before things begin to unravel?

Mark Pierce: Yeah, and I brushed it with you earlier. It's this idea that, you know, we're in an up economy. I've managed to hit a business is fantastic. I've worked my whole life to get here. I'm good as gold. What do I need to worry about? I don't need to really hit my bets. I don't really need to hold back with anything.

I'm gonna push this as hard as I can while I can, and then they push it over the edge and they can't get back from the edge, and then they're in denial about the pullback. So that I think is something that results in that overconfidence in a failure to see what your downside is. And, And most entrepreneurs who have gone through pullbacks in the past, or financial disasters or divorces or tax audits, that sort of thing, realize what their downside is.

And I have my shortest consultations with [00:32:00] those people. I had one person that walked in after five minutes and send me a contract. I want to get going. You know,

and then I have people that go on and on. The more you go on, it's like you said, you push the button, the car stories, how much more do you need to know?

I can't get through it in an hour.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a whole thing of preparation. What I love about preparation, when you do it in advance, it's the gift that keeps on giving. And so as a follow up to that mark, because I'm wondering, so over the decades that you've been in practice, you've watched people, sadly, and unfortunately lose everything.

Now you saw that with your family and that made an impression on you very early on for yourself. As you see this happen from time to time, unfortunately, for people who come to you when it's too late that you couldn't help them, how does that change your own psychology when it comes to money, control, trust?

What has that done to you or for you is probably the better question over the years.

Mark Pierce: Well, I think as an entrepreneur you have to be excessively optimistic that you wouldn't get up every day and go try to slaughter [00:33:00] the whale, right? You just would stay in bed and say, oh my God, chicken little, the world's collapsing around you, particularly now. With the divisiveness that we have going on in the political situation, but that divisive divisiveness is gonna give rise to opportunity.

What's it gonna be? I don't know. So I started reading, going to seminars, and trying to figure out what that is. But I've also pulled back on a number of things on my personal front saying I need cash in the bank, and if I need cash in the bank because there's gonna be some sort of opportunities coming up, then I'm not excessively optimistic during these periods of time.

And there was a friend of mine whose father was a cattle rancher in Wyoming, and he said, why do I need to know by what these Europeans want on these cattle prices and what's going on there? And his son looked at him and says, because they're buying our beef. He goes, oh hell, I didn't know that. So it's that interconnectivity, right?

So you say, Hey, somebody else has all the problems. They might be your problems. You just haven't recognized it yet. See you. You gotta keep your nose to the ground with this sort of thing. No matter [00:34:00] how good it is. It's not always that good. I.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Exactly. It's like you said earlier, Hey, things may be great now, but you have to prepare for that rainy day as the saying goes, where you just don't know what you don't know. That said, if you protect yourself, then you're going a long way, not just for you, not just for your. Business, your team, and the stakeholders before your family as well.

And let's talk about that for a moment because it's interesting. Here at Deep Wealth, we talk a lot about the exit, in addition to growing your business with no exit. But there is one exit that all of us have. I call it the final exit, and we don't have a choice in that. We're all Markhing towards that at one point in time.

But for most founders. It's not top of mind. It's not even there. And then very sadly, unexpectedly, they have the final exit. Now they're no longer here. And instead of a legacy of helping the next generation. It's a mess. It is headaches. It may even be litigation and lawsuits and, well, I should have had this.

Well, no, you've got that. It was actually for me and back and [00:35:00] forth it goes. So from an estate planning side of things with what you and the team are doing, what would you want us to know about why it's so important to work with you and the team to get that done now? While I'm healthy, I have my faculties, the business is still in a great place that I can ensure continuity.

Should that final exit happen before anyone wanted to or plans to?

Mark Pierce: Well, I think you've seen it, you know, when you're 50, you have a level of accu acuity that you don't have at 60, that you don't have at 70, that you don't have at 80. And I had a couple actually it was a, a woman and her son had come into my office probably about 12 years ago. And her husband had passed away and he left no will, and he was 85.

And I thought, well, what do they own? It turned out that they had about 20,000 acres of land valued at 1,500 per acres. So about $30 million plus, plus oil and gas sensor, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And a large family. Well, that's just a denial that the inevitable is not going to happen.

So when [00:36:00] you're in your fifties, sixties and you're, you have the ability to make these assessments and really to think clearly, and then to hone them as you get older. That's what you need to be doing because you're always preparing for an exit because we all exit.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yeah, we absolutely do. And when a founder is saying to me, Jeffrey, I have no plans to exit the business. Well, you don't have plans to exit the business. I get that. But either there's a final exit, or at one point in time there's always some kind of an exit. Maybe it's the next generation, whatever it's gonna be.

And we need to prepare for that. And so I'm wondering, because success leaves clues and so does failure, and oftentimes the saying goes hindsight is 2020. And so you spent your professional career of helping people to ensure it doesn't go wrong. Sadly, at the same time, you've also seen what can go wrong.

And so for someone in Deep, both Nation, if they could ask themselves one question. Before a crisis happens, before the shoe drops, as the saying goes, what would that one [00:37:00] question be? That could be an eye-opener for them to begin to realize, well, hey, it's not quite what I thought it was.

Mark Pierce: Yeah, well, you've been in business long enough. The quicker you get something done, the happier you're gonna be, never gets better. you can't brush it under the rug. So why not do it now? What's precluding you from doing it now? You get up in the morning, you've got this ticked list of things to do, and what do you do?

You pick you the best advice I ever got. I throw an attorney, he said, mark, when you go into the office on Monday morning, take your worst bile and do it. He said, and then it's out of the way. And the rest of it looks like a lot of fun for the week. Well, that's kind of it. Here, do it.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yeah, it reminds me of that saying, eat the frog first thing in the morning. Do the thing you don't wanna do first thing, because it's a win in the rest of the day. You're walking on Cloud nine. And it also reminds me, I would love your comments on this. A very good friend of mine, incredibly successful in business and in life, and he gave some wise advice.

He said, Jeffrey, what I've done for myself is when I go to bed at night, I [00:38:00] have. Peace of mind. I have no worries. Yeah, things may not have worked out. I may have lost a deal. I may have won a deal, but when I'm going to bed at night, I have a clear conscience, I have peace of mind. And he says, you know, Jeffrey, I cannot put a price on that.

That means so much to me. And that's how I conduct my life. That's how I conduct my business. So from that perspective, when I'm working, mark with you and the team, and we're looking at all these different asset protections or the estate planning. For the clients that you've done this for, can you share with us what is meant for them after the fact now that they know, okay, we did the heavy lifting, it's done, it's in place.

What does that mean for them? What does that look like? Practically speaking.

Mark Pierce: Peace of mind. It's like a, it's a burden off of them, right? They've made all the hard decisions. They may adjust them over time, but they made the. Decisions about their financial affairs that made the decisions about their family. They have begun to develop a process of either bringing more and more families members in, or maybe beginning to exclude some or recognizing thing about their families that they hadn't otherwise considered.

Because you're not gonna [00:39:00] talk to an attorney and get a lot of that advice. Go talk to your rabbi. Go talk to your priest. Go talk to somebody who actually knows what your family's about, right? They can give really good advice on that sort of thing, and involve everyone in that estate planning process.

So by the time you're done, two, three years down the road, you've got something that just lifts you. 'cause you know that you've been a success and you're gonna perpetuate the success. And isn't that what legacy planning is about? Isn't that your legacy? How are you gonna leave a legacy if you haven't planned it out?

Jeffrey Feldberg: And what's amazing about that, and again, no judgment here, it's my observation most people will spend more time. I'm planning a one-time vacation than they will when it comes to estate planning and legacy. I don't know what it is in society. It's a taboo not to talk about money. If I can put myself under the microscope with my family, with my children, it's always a very open conversation.

Here's what's going on. And by the way, it changes 'cause each year. We look at what's going on, where are things at? Where do we want to be? And we will change the estate planning and the wills and everything else, but they're also [00:40:00] aware of that. And heaven forbid something should happen that we don't want to happen.

They at least have the foundation in place. Okay? This is the team that's helping the family, and in many cases, they've already spoken with them. And as they get older, they'll have meetings with them and we'll have family meetings and we'll bring them in and they can talk. And so it's a. Continuation of what's there, that it doesn't make it worse, it makes it better, should something not so great happen.

We'd love your thoughts about that.

Mark Pierce: Oh yeah. I call it the Dutch Uncle Syndrome, right? So you get everybody together in a room, you're gone. Who do you wanna sit in the room? Who do you wanna sit in the room and talk to your family and bring them together, but also help 'em to see the way things are, the way they needs to go. The Dutch chuckle, he tells you the way that they are, but he does it with kindness and gets you heading in the right direction and keeps everyone together.

And that's what I'm saying, the biggest part of legacy planning is. Is making sure that you have a continuity of the family when you're done and is held together as a family, not just an economic family, but who your true family is at the end of the day, because we have [00:41:00] involuntary members of our family that we would like to move out of the way, or we have individuals who are great friends of ours, that we still want to continue to be a part of our family.

And that's what you're looking at with your legacy planning on moving this thing forward? I said it's just. A complete understanding of the totality of your circumstances in life and moving 'em forward the best that you can.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And Mark starting from zero. So nothing's been put in place and I'm coming to you and the team. Okay, let's get this in place. Again, ballpark, and it's gonna change. I get it from situation to situation, but ballpark, roughly how long does the process take to get everything set up? And we have the applications filed, the estates are now in process.

They're registered. We have the estate planning now written down and in place. Ballpark, how long will that typically take?

Mark Pierce: Well, the formation documents of a trust and the underlying LLC should take you about six weeks if you're really devoted to it. So about two weeks to six weeks, depending upon the complexity of your underlying structure. But then you really have to pay attention underneath that umbrella that the trust provides.

You [00:42:00] have to pay attention to what are the LLCs or the holding companies that are in it. How is that reflected out? Are there C corps, S corps? If so, is there technology? How do we need to structure all of that? And what we generally find with people is that those are not so well structured from the standpoint of the trust because they, just, as an example, you put your technology out into a sub separate subsidiary.

That leases down into other subsidiaries, so your technology's always protected the event. One of those LLCs goes out of business and then you put a management service organization in there so you can take advantage of the, pension funds and the, basic administration of a variety of LLCs and operations that it, those sorts of things that takes more and more time, but that you can develop over time because you've got your basic umbrella and you know that you've got the freedom to do it, and you can develop the cash flows to do it.

Jeffrey Feldberg: So what I'm hearing you say, if I add some time onto it, it would be a fair statement and you can share Jeffrey OnBase or off base, somewhere between three months to six months latest. If I am committed to it, everything should be done [00:43:00] and it's really not a whole lot of time and de Deep Wealth Nation, I suspect maybe asking, okay, three to six months I can handle that, maybe even a couple of months if I make this a priority for me.

And nation, I can assure you that cost-wise is probably not what you're thinking. In a good way. It's a lot less than what you would imagine. And I know when I was looking into this mark that depending on the types of. Trusts or advisors that you're using. The other guys, I'll just put them in another whole other bucket.

It can be expensive and it's out there in terms of dollars and cents. But I know with you and the team, it's actually anyone who's in business and you're talking about, well, this is not for you if you're less than $2 million in terms of net worth. So if you're at that level, and $2 million is not a high bar, especially today with inflation, how everything's gone.

So if you're at that level. I would, and you can, again, Jeffrey OnBase are off base. The cost, the legal fees to get all this set up. Relatively speaking, it's a rounding error compared to the tax savings and the benefits that I'm getting. Thoughts about that [00:44:00] I.

Mark Pierce: Yeah, exactly right. I just talked to a guy the other day that was worth $8 million and he said the price tag we had on our formation documents just seemed a little high for him. And I said to him, it's less than one 10th of 1% of your net worth. You pay more than that in insurance every year and you're in your sixties and your wife's in ill hell.

This allows you to provide for your legacy planning. Move beyond its, and its foolproof if you get it in place the right way. So that's, my thought. This is the price of lunch.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely, and I know once it's set up, sure there's gonna be fees with an ongoing basis that's taking place. If I'm not mistaken, that's tax deductible anyway, so it's not as always really coming out of pocket. It's covered. And the ROI, the most important thing is absolutely huge, and it goes back to that peace of mind that we've been talking about.

We're not wrapping up just yet. We are gonna go into wrap mode. Before we go into wrap up mode, is there an important question that you and I haven't yet covered that you want to get out there to do? Both Nation? I.

Mark Pierce: Yeah, I think you [00:45:00] know, one of the most interesting things is you have to ask yourself is why are you in business? What do you want to accomplish? What do you want to accomplish within your community, within your family, within the structure of friends you have? What legacy do you want to leave? How do you want people to remember you and your legacy?

Planning? The charitable gifts that you make, the way in which you establish your kids within the community, the way your business functions within the community. Those reflect who you are. That's your true measure of value, not the amount of money you got in the bank.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And if we go back to the narrative, for most founders, if you or I were to ask 'em, okay, why'd you do this? Why'd you get into the business for the first place? They'll give you some reasons. One of those reasons is likely gonna be, well, I did it for my family. I did it for their future. And going back, mark, with what you said just now, well, if we're doing it for them, why not take it all the way through to the finish line and make sure it truly is for them and not a short-term type of thing, just for today.

So I absolutely love that. And so with that said, we're gonna go into wrap up mode. It's a tradition here on the Deep Wealth Nation. It's my privilege. It's my [00:46:00] honor. Every guest I ask the same question. It's a fun question. Let me set this up for you. When you think of the movie Back to the Future, you have that magical DeLorean car that will take you to any point in time.

So Mark, this is the fun part. It's tomorrow morning. You look outside your window. Not only is the DeLorean car curbside, the door is open, it's waiting for you to hop on in which you do, and you're now gonna go to any point in time. Mark, as a young child, a teenager, whatever point in time it would be, what would you tell your younger self in terms of life lessons or life wisdom or, Hey Mark, do this, but don't do that.

What would it sound like?

Mark Pierce: Take your time. Enjoy the process. Make good friends. Take your time in making the decisions that you make about your life. Don't just be impulsive in your contact. I know. Young men are, are so impulsive. I've noticed that. I've got two sons and they are, you know, sometimes I just pull back and say, I like to ask them, what were you thinking?

But then I look at myself and say, what was I thinking? So have a rhetorical question. So that's what I tell [00:47:00] myself. Take more time. Enjoy the process. It's not the result so much. The result makes a difference, but it's the process that makes a difference. And it's those people that you form bonds with that truly make life worth a living.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Absolutely love that. So take your time. Enjoy the journey and make great friends. Wow, what a combination. Deepal Nation, that's not gold. That is platinum. That

Mark Pierce: You were talking about the guy that sits down at the end of every day and says, okay, and writes things down. I said, yeah, it's not so bad. Or maybe it's not so good. I don't know, but you've got a clear mind going into the next day.

Jeffrey Feldberg: Yeah, that is so important. And Mark, someone in Depa Nation, they want to speak with you. They have a question. Better yet, they wanna work with you and the team. Where's the best place online to find you?

Mark Pierce: It's uh, Wyoming trust attorney.com and we've got a button you can schedule a half an hour consultation with me for 3 75 and you'd be surprised by what we get to very quickly. And I have generally found that a half an hour is an introduction, [00:48:00] is about what you'll need to really begin reflecting on what you want to accomplish and how you want to get there.

Jeffrey Feldberg: And Deep Wealth Nation some great news. It doesn't get any easier. Go to the show notes. All of the links are there. It's point and click and take up that offer of, hey, let's have a free consultation because I guarantee you Deep Wealth Nation, you're gonna come out of that. With some questions you probably haven't asked yourself and some information that probably was not on the radar, but it's important and it can and will make all the difference.

So that said, mark, it's official. Congratulations. This is a wrap, and as we love to say here at Deep Wealth, may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain healthy and safe. Thank you so much.

Mark Pierce: Thank you, Jeffrey. I really enjoyed this.

Jeffrey Feldberg: So there you have it, Deep Wealth Nation. 

What did you think? 

So with all that said and as we wrap it up, I have another question for you.

Actually, it's more of a personal favor. 

Did you find this episode helpful? 

Have you found other episodes of the Deep Wealth Podcast empowering and a game changer for your journey? 

And if you said yes, and I really hope you did, I have a small but really meaningful way that you can actually help us out [00:49:00] and keep these episodes coming to you.

Are you ready for it? 

The dramatic pause. I'll just wait a moment. Drumroll, please. Subscribe. Please subscribe to the Deep Wealth podcast on your favorite podcast channel. When you subscribe to the Deep Wealth Podcast, you're saving yourself time. Every episode automatically comes to you, and I want you to know that we meticulously craft Every one of our episodes to have impactful strategies, stories, expert insights that are designed to help you grow your profits, increase the value of your business, and yes, even optimize your post exit life and your life right now, whatever you want that to look like.

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So all that said. Thank you so much for listening. And remember your wealth isn't just about the money in the bank. It's about the depth of your journey and the impact that you're creating. So let's continue this journey together. And from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for listening to this episode.

And as we love to say here at Deep Wealth, may you continue to thrive and prosper while you remain healthy and safe. 

Thank you so much. 

God bless.